What does it take to build a truly pro-social world?In this conversation, evolutionary biologist David Sloan Wilson brings Darwinian evolution into dialogue with the vision of the Third Attractor. We explore why cooperation is one of evolution’s greatest achievements, why good intentions alone are not enough, and how groups can create the conditions that allow people to work together for the common good.Drawing on multilevel selection and Elinor Ostrom’s groundbreaking work on the commons, David explains the core principles that enable groups to become cooperative, resilient and self-governing. We also explore the relationship between inner transformation and social structures, the limits of individualism, and how cooperation might expand from small groups to communities, nations and ultimately the whole planet.At the heart of the conversation is a hopeful possibility: perhaps a more pro-social future does not need to remain a utopian ideal. We already know a great deal about the conditions that make cooperation possible. The challenge is to begin putting them into practice.0:00 Co-creating a Pro-Social World5:29 Bridging Inner States and Outer Actions9:06 Tracing Intellectual and Spiritual Lineages15:44 The Evolutionary Biologist's Perspective22:24 Respecting Indigenous Wisdom26:34 Understanding the WEIRD Cultural Bias37:56 The Evolutionary Dilemma of Altruism48:38 Elinor Ostrom and the Commons1:12:30 A Blueprint for Global Flourishingabout David Sloan WilsonDavid Sloan Wilson is an evolutionary biologist and Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Biological Sciences and Anthropology at Binghamton University, where he taught from 1988 until his retirement in 2019. He is the leading proponent of multilevel selection theory, developed with philosopher Elliott Sober in their book "Unto Others," which argues that natural selection operates on a nested hierarchy of units: genes within individuals, individuals within groups, groups within populations. Cooperation, on this account, is a real evolutionary outcome rather than disguised self-interest, but it survives only where the conditions at the higher level hold. He founded the Evolutionary Studies program at Binghamton to unify disciplines under evolutionary theory, and co-founded the Evolution Institute and Prosocial World, which applies multilevel selection alongside Elinor Ostrom's design principles to help real groups function as cooperative units. His books include "Evolution for Everyone" and "Atlas Hugged."https://davidsloanwilson.worldhttps://www.prosocial.worldabout Daniela BomatterDaniela Bomatter is a Swiss-born evolutionary practitioner, facilitator, and former technology executive whose life bridges the worlds of systems transformation, spiritual awakening, and human development. After a successful career in software engineering and leadership, including serving as CEO of SwissEnergy at the Swiss Federal Office of Energy, she left public life in 2016 to dedicate herself fully to the path of spiritual realization and conscious evolution. For seventeen years, she studied and worked closely with spiritual teacher Andrew Cohen, becoming a senior practitioner and teacher of Evolutionary Enlightenment.Daniela is the co-founder of Manifest Nirvana (https://www.manifest-nirvana.com) and lives in Tiruvannamalai, South India, where she leads retreats, online programs, and global dialogues exploring the intersection of awakening, culture, and collective transformation. She is the creator of the “Co-Creating the Third Attractor” Podcast (https://3da.manifest-nirvana.com ) , a integral inquiry into the future of human civilization, and the author of The Viratya Myth Begins (https://www.viratya.com). Through her writing, teaching, and conversations, Daniela invites people to discover a way of being that embraces both timeless presence and evolutionary becoming, holding the paradoxes of our age with depth, responsibility, and wonder.
