Most leaders treat problem behavior at work as a people problem. Dustin Snyder treats it as a design problem.
Dustin came up through HR, then took both the VP of HR and president seats at a 600-employee manufacturing division that had been losing money for years. The turnaround taught him something uncomfortable. The HR toolkit he had been trained on, including progressive discipline, was built to limit liability, not to change behavior. That led him to human systems theory, the finding that behavior at scale is a rational adaptation to the environment. If people don't change when you ask them to, it's because the environment hasn't changed.
In this conversation, Brandon and Dustin get into why engagement surveys return symptoms instead of root causes, the UPS survey that hit record scores a few months before a companywide strike, the skilled trades team that was quitting over pride rather than pay, and the rural energy company that was hiding the exact thing its best candidates wanted.
If absenteeism, turnover, or disengagement keeps coming back no matter what you try, this one gives you a different place to look.
About our guest
Dustin Snyder is a consultant and the author of Sink or Swim: The Human Systems Theory Approach to Business Performance, the first of three planned books. He spent his career in HR before taking on both the VP of HR and president roles at the American division of a global metals company, roughly 600 employees and $300 million in annual revenue. That turnaround became the basis for SWIM, short for strategic workforce insight mapping, the process he now uses to trace systemic employee behavior back to its root causes. He has worked with manufacturers, hospitals, software companies, and higher education.
TIMESTAMPS
- 01:45 Why the goals were never the problem
- 03:55 How a losing manufacturing division changed his management style
- 05:20 Why the HR toolkit limits liability instead of changing behavior
- 06:35 How stricter attendance policies produce worse attendance
- 11:30 What human systems theory means in plain language
- 12:45 Why engagement surveys hand you symptoms instead of root causes
- 14:20 How UPS hit record engagement scores right before a strike
- 15:45 Why a skilled trades team was quitting over pride, not pay
- 17:35 Why most consulting engagements fade the moment the invoice clears
- 23:35 How triangulation spreads dysfunction through an organization
- 26:15 What a top performer really costs when they leave
- 28:45 What leadership is actually responsible for when behavior is a system output
- 31:40 How a rural energy company turned its weakness into its hiring pitch
- 34:35 Where AI helps with this work and where trust makes it fail
- 38:30 The one mindset shift to try next week
A QUICK GLIMPSE INTO OUR PODCAST
Podcast: Transform Your Workplace, sponsored by Xenium HR
Host: Brandon Laws
In Brandon's own words: "The Transform Your Workplace podcast is your go-to source for the latest workplace trends, big ideas, and time-tested methods straight from the mouths of industry experts and respected thought-leaders."
About Xenium HR
Xenium HR is on a mission to transform workplaces by providing expert outsourced HR and payroll services for small and medium-sized businesses. With a people-first approach, Xenium helps organizations create thriving work environments where employees feel valued and supported. From navigating compliance to enhancing workplace culture, Xenium offers tailored solutions that empower growth and simplify HR. Whether managing employee relations, payroll processing, or implementing impactful training programs, Xenium is the trusted partner businesses rely on to elevate their workplace experience. Discover how Xenium can transform your workplace:
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