Why do we claim to love our dogs while breeding them for dependence and keeping them in environments that strip away their daily choices?
Bioethicist and author Dr. Jessica Pierce joins host PJ Wehry on Chasing Leviathan to discuss human-animal relationships and the profound interconnections between ecosystems and health.
Dr. Pierce explores the ethics of our canine bonds in her book, Who's a Good Human? Practical Exercises for Living Mindfully with Dogs. They examine how an ethical relationship isn't about demanding strict obedience from a "pet," but rather requires the skills of curiosity, collaboration, and care.
In this conversation they explore:
- Why the standard model of viewing dogs simply as pets is flawed, and how to embrace the collaborative, often messy project of living together.
- The concept of "experiential ethics"—or embodied ethics—and how mucking through complex life experiences teaches us more than abstract philosophical principles.
- How a scientific thought experiment about dogs surviving a human-erasing rapture revealed that dogs might actually be better off without us.
- The "phenomenological recalibration" Dr. Pierce experienced after becoming a volunteer firefighter in her mountain community, and how it radically shifted her perception of the natural world.
- The dark side of modern dog breeding, the cultural obsession with unhealthy breeds like pugs and French Bulldogs, and why humans are psychologically drawn to canine dependence.
- Why we should view modern companion dogs as "captive animals" and how introducing micro-choices into their daily routines can profoundly improve their welfare.
- How applying the Zen Buddhist concept of "beginner's mind" and practicing deep curiosity can transform our knee-jerk annoyances—like a dog barking—into moments of mindful communication.
This is a conversation for anyone interested in bioethics, dog ethology, and mindfulness who wants to understand how to sincerely navigate our relationship with animals while honoring their fundamental needs and agency.
Make sure to check out Dr. Pierce's book: Who's a Good Human? Practical Exercises for Living Mindfully with Dogs 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226854213/
Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com
Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.
These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.
Timestamps
00:00:00 Introducing Dr. Jessica Pierce
00:04:08 Experiential Ethics and Training Attention
00:05:22 Would Dogs Survive Without Humans?
00:07:30 Firefighting and Phenomenological Recalibration
00:16:00 The Problem with Armchair Philosophy
00:19:21 Navigating Imperfect Moral Choices
00:23:42 The Dark Side of Dog Breeding
00:26:18 The Environmental Impact of Healthcare
00:29:26 Navigating End of Life Pet Care
00:33:51 Ethical Complications of Owning Dogs
00:40:36 Recognizing Dogs as Captive Animals
00:43:10 Providing Choices for Captive Dogs
00:45:32 Engaging with Anti-Dog Sentiments
00:51:00 Why Dogs Deserve Meaningful Work
00:54:19 Applying Beginners Mind and Curiosity
