Why do morally good people often hesitate to change other people's minds, viewing persuasion as presumptuous, obnoxious, or downright creepy?
The University of Washington's professor of philosophy, Dr. Colin Marshall, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss how to successfully bridge deep divides in our highly polarized climate.
Dr. Marshall explores the ethics and psychology of civil persuasion in his book, Just Hear Me Out: How to Change Minds Without Lies, Bullshit, or Moral Compromise. They examine how genuine persuasion isn't about manipulation or aggressive takedowns , but rather requires a delicate balance of respect, compassion, and the right environment.
In this conversation they explore:
- Why the fallout of the 2016 US presidential election pushed Dr. Marshall from pure theoretical philosophy into finding practical tools for civil engagement.
- The crucial difference between manipulative persuasion—where people are treated as obstacles to maneuver—and civil persuasion that honors a person's complete humanity.
- How combining Immanuel Kant's emphasis on rational respect with Arthur Schopenhauer's focus on deep compassion creates a coherent framework for changing minds.
- Why attempting to persuade someone at the Thanksgiving table almost always fails, and the importance of establishing an "attention-friendly context" like grabbing a coffee or a beer.
- Incredible real-world examples of successful persuasion, including Daryl Davis persuading extremists to leave the KKK and Megan Phelps-Roper leaving the Westboro Baptist Church after patient, charitable interactions on Twitter.
- The concept of "moral myopia"—the deeply human tendency to become so hyper-focused on one moral issue or our own self-respect that we lose sight of the other person's bandwidth and feelings.
- The psychology of building trust, and why establishing warmth and shared humanity must always come before proving your intellectual competence.
This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, psychology, and healthy communication who wants to understand how to sincerely navigate our modern disagreements without sacrificing their own moral integrity.
Make sure to check out Dr. Marshall's book: Just Hear Me Out: How to Change Minds without Lies, Bullshit, or Moral Compromise 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226842002/
Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com
Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.
These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.
Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Colin Marshall
1:17 Why Good People Avoid Persuasion After the 2016 Election
4:32 Respect and Compassion in Kant and Schopenhauer
6:16 Balancing Respect and Compassion in Difficult Conversations
8:38 Thanksgiving, Arguments, and Creating Better Conversation Contexts
9:09 Daryl Davis, Jane Addams, and Megan Phelps Roper as Persuasion Case Studies
13:17 Curiosity, Compassion, and Seeing People You Disagree With
15:57 Self Respect, Boundaries, and When to Disengage or Walk Away
18:15 Mr. Rogers' Congress Testimony and Quiet Moral Confidence
19:35 Manipulation Versus Civil Persuasion and the Marionette Metaphor
24:32 Attention Friendly Contexts and Why Rushing Arguments Fails
33:42 Moral Myopia and Missing Key Ethical Pieces in Arguments
40:34 Respect Versus Trust and When Not to Trust Someone
44:44 Warmth, Competence, and the Psychology of Building Trust
47:53 Practical Ways to Build Trust and Show You Know What You are Talking About
52:02 Closing Thoughts
