Have you ever followed a leader who shared their struggles on stage, said all the right things about brokenness, and still left everyone around them feeling smaller? Therapist and professor Dr. Chuck DeGroat has a name for that: fauxnerability.
Chuck returns to A World of Difference the day after launching his new book, Who You're Becoming, for an honest conversation about narcissism in leadership across tech, politics, faith communities and nonprofits, and the slow work of building real character.
Content note: this episode discusses narcissistic and spiritual abuse. Please listen with care.
In this episode:
Fauxnerability: how performed vulnerability draws people in, and why real vulnerability connects us instead of shrinking us
Why Chuck sees narcissism as a defensive structure built over decades, and why he holds empathy and accountability together
Return to office and narcissistic supply: why some leaders need people back in the room, and the "mirror-hungry leader" who needs an audience
Virtue signaling, performative allyship, and the difference between groupthink and a wholehearted yes
Disintegration at work: when mission statements say one thing and the patterns beneath the waterline say another
About Dr. Chuck DeGroat: Chuck is a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, where he is founding executive director of the clinical mental health counseling program, and a licensed therapist and spiritual director who specializes in abuse, trauma and leadership health. He is the author of When Narcissism Comes to Church, Healing What's Within, and Who You're Becoming: The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age (Tyndale), which earned a starred review from Publishers Weekly.
Timestamps:
00:00 Hook: why people plug into narcissistic leaders
00:33 Introduction: welcome back, Chuck
04:58 San Francisco, loneliness, and why connection fuels leaders
07:51 Fauxnerability: when vulnerability becomes a performance
10:14 A crisis of leadership and the doubling down on power
14:54 Empathy and accountability with leaders who have caused harm
19:14 Return to office and narcissistic supply
22:33 Mirror-hungry leaders and ideal-hungry followers
23:56 Lori's story: when you are someone's narcissistic supply
24:58 Virtue signaling and performative allyship
28:07 Disintegration, and what a reintegrated culture looks like
32:08 Reckonings across institutions, and reasons for hope
33:25 The vision of Who You're Becoming: growing in integrity
36:06 Where to find Chuck and his new book
37:03 Closing reflections
40:03 Passport Stamp: Canada
A note on the research mentioned: Adam Grant, Marissa Shandell and Courtney Elliott found that leader narcissism was associated with greater resistance to remote work. The title of this research article says it all: Worship me at the office altar: Why narcissistic leaders resist remote work https://fortune.com/2026/06/25/return-to-office-ceos-ego-research/
Find Dr. Chuck DeGroat at: https://chuckdegroat.net | Substack, Sit with Chuck | Instagram | Facebook
Get his new book, Who You're Becoming
Join us on Patreon for an exclusive bonus with Chuck: the story from his book that shows how "performative authenticity" can hide narcissism, even among wellness voices and self-help lovers: https://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference
Has a leader's "vulnerability" ever left you feeling smaller? Explore my SAFE Ground Framework™, a tool for leaders and targets to spot workplace bullying before it spreads.
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