🎯 Episode Highlights

  • 🐒 Why PETA says endangered long-tailed macaques are still ending up in research laboratories.
  • 🌍 How the global wildlife trafficking pipeline fuels the laboratory monkey trade.
  • ⚖️ The legal battle to secure stronger protections for endangered primates.
  • 🔬 A discussion of the ethics of animal experimentation and emerging non-animal research alternatives.
  • 📉 Why conservation experts warn that long-tailed macaque populations are rapidly declining.
  • 💬 Jane Velez-Mitchell and her guest explain how viewers and listeners can take action to help protect monkeys from exploitation.

📝 Podcast Description

Animal Testing Crisis takes an in-depth look at the fight to protect endangered long-tailed macaques from the global laboratory trade. In this compelling episode, Jane Velez-Mitchell speaks with one of the world's leading experts on primate trafficking and animal experimentation to examine why these intelligent animals continue to be captured from the wild despite mounting scientific evidence of their declining populations.

"These animals are in crisis."
– From the transcript

You'll discover why PETA is urging U.S. officials to strengthen protections for endangered macaques, how wildlife trafficking feeds the laboratory supply chain, and why conservation scientists are warning that long-tailed macaques face severe population declines. The discussion also explores the ethical questions surrounding animal experimentation and the growing movement toward modern, non-animal research methods. Recent investigations highlighted by PETA and featured on UnchainedTV examine allegations that endangered macaques have entered the U.S. research pipeline through illegal trafficking networks.

"There is a war on monkeys."
– From the transcript

Join Jane Velez-Mitchell and her guest as they explain what's at stake for endangered primates and what listeners can do to help protect wildlife and promote humane science.

Call to Action: Subscribe, share this episode, and learn more about protecting endangered animals by visiting UnchainedTV and PETA.

Jane Velez-Mitchell is an award-winning journalist, TV producer and New York Times bestselling author who founded UnchainedTV, the world's premier plant-based streaming network. UnchainedTV offers more than 2,000 free documentaries, cooking shows, lifestyle, and news programs. Download UnchainedTV free on mobile devices or TV streaming platforms including Amazon Fire, Roku, and Apple TV. Watch online: https://watch.unchainedtv.com/browse

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🐦 Twitter/X: @jvm

 

 

TRANSCRIPT:

PETA Battle for Monkeys!
(0:11) These animals are in crisis. (0:14) There is a war on monkeys. (0:17) They are being kidnapped from the wild for lab torture, and the U.S. government will (0:25) not admit that long-tailed macaques are now endangered, even though scientists are saying (0:32) they are endangered and they need protections.
 
(0:37) So we're going to go straight out to the person who knows more about this than any other person (0:43) on the planet, and that is PETA's Chief Scientist Advisor for Animal Experimentation, Dr. Lisa (0:52) Jones-Engel. (0:53) Dr. Lisa, tell us what's going on. (0:56) The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, they've decided that even though all the data is there (1:01) in front of them, the population declines, the smuggling, the illegal capture, the disease (1:05) risk, they've said now twice that long-tailed macaques are not worthy of being added to (1:13) the Endangered Species Act.
 
(1:14) And that's crazy, because the data don't lie. (1:18) And so the question that we all need to be asking U.S. Fish and Wildlife is, why aren't (1:22) you seeing it? (1:23) Why aren't you responding to what the scientists are putting in front of you? (1:31) How is it possible that they ignore the science, that they ignore major environmental scientific (1:37) groups who are saying these animals are endangered, and the reason why is that you keep kidnapping (1:41) them to put them in cages to be experimented on in torturous experiments? (1:48) You know, I think a lot of it has to do with we are up against an incredibly powerful industry. (1:55) You know, the pharmaceutical industry, the big primate, the big monkey importers, remember, (2:00) this is a billion-dollar industry.
 
(2:02) And a billion-dollar industry buys you a lot of time in people's offices. (2:08) It buys you a lot of meetings. (2:09) It buys you a lot of monkeys.
 
(2:12) And I think money is doing a lot of talking here, but as the money talks, the monkeys die.(2:21) The populations decline. (2:23) Just because U.S. Fish and Wildlife has again denied this petition doesn't mean that the (2:28) conservation risk, the threat for this endangered species has changed.
 
(2:34) The IUCN, the International Union for the Conservation of Nature, the global authority on whether (2:41) plants and animals are at risk of being endangered, critically endangered, going extinct, that (2:48) global authority has now said twice in the last four years, long-tailed macaques, these (2:55) animals are being wiped off the face of the earth. (2:59) And one of the driving forces is their extraction from the wild to be boxed up and sent around (3:05) the world, primarily here to the U.S. for use in experimentation. (3:11) I don't know how an agency like the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service can deny the numbers, (3:16) can deny their own data, can deny data from scientists and say, looks fine to us.
 
(3:22) You and your organization, PETA, has documented other risks to humans from the importation (3:31) of these macaques and other primates to the United States for experimentation.(3:37) Let's listen to you at a news conference in Washington, D.C. last year. (3:43) CDC's own data show that tuberculosis-infected monkeys imported from Southeast Asia and Mauritius (3:50) made it through federal quarantine and into U.S. laboratories, carrying multiple strains (3:55) of TB, including a strain that we have never seen before here in animals.
 
(4:02) A new peer-reviewed CDC paper, quietly published behind a paywall, confirms this. (4:10) Tuberculosis sickens 10 million people and kills one in a quarter of them every year. (4:16) It's the world's leading cause of death from a single infectious agent, according to the (4:22) World Health Organization.
 
(4:23) This deadly disease is coming into the U.S. and, ironically, going into the laboratories (4:29) that are supposed to be curing disease. (4:31) Not only is monkey experimentation not curing diseases, all the diseases they cite, cancer, (4:38) diabetes, heart disease, are going up, but it's posing a threat to humans. (4:44) Can you expand on that, Dr. Lisa? (4:47) Exactly.
 
(4:48) And so, I mean, thank you for playing that clip. (4:50) That was about a year ago now, when, again, what PETA has been doing is we've been following (4:56) the pathogens because we know that this, a real weak point for this industry is having (5:05) people look in and say, oh, not only are you just bringing endangered monkeys into the (5:10) U.S., these monkeys, once they're caught up in this importation pipeline, are invariably (5:18) harboring dangerous infectious diseases, everything from tuberculosis to Shigella to herpes B (5:25) to simian retroviruses to malaria parasites. (5:31) And I want to share something with you, Jane, that we just learned.
 
(5:34) So the CITES, Animal Committee, so the CITES, this is the global organization that oversees(5:41) trade in animals and plants. (5:44) CITES met last week, and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Delegation had the audacity to say, (5:56) hey, stop trying to use the threat of infectious diseases being brought in with these monkeys (6:01) as a way to backdoor shutting the door on importation.(6:08) This was basically the same day that the CDC published another paper and said, yeah, you(6:15) know what? (6:15) Over the past couple of years, we've had more monkeys arriving.
 
(6:19) The shipments are larger. (6:21) The larger the shipments, the more sick the monkeys are.(6:24) We've not been able to detect all the infections.
 
(6:27) The infections are leaving quarantine. (6:29) Monkeys are moving to other facilities. (6:31) People are getting exposed.
 
(6:34) Again, I'm a scientist. (6:36) The data are right in front of all of these agencies. (6:42) What is it going to take at this stage? (6:47) You are making, you are defining the pathway for the next global pandemic with this industry.
 
(6:56) And for what? (6:57) Because the scientific community is rapidly moving beyond using non-human primates. (7:02) And yet this multi-billion dollar industry says, uh-uh, not yet. (7:06) I want to try to squeeze every single penny I can out of these monkeys.
 
(7:11) It's incredibly dangerous. (7:13) Meanwhile, there is still an effort to put a giant, a laboratory monkey breeding facility (7:20) in a small town in Georgia. (7:22) And there's been so much uproar about that.
 
(7:26) There's even a documentary that is now streaming on Unchained TV. (7:30) Let's take a look at a little clip of that documentary called 30,000 Monkeys in Our Backyard. (7:38) We learned that this proposed facility was going to be 30,000 monkeys.
 
(7:45) My God, you know, at this rate, this industry will empty the forest of macaques. (7:54) And then I actually read just a little bit more closely. (7:56) And that's when we saw who the main players were.
 
(8:00) He was the COO of a company named InVigo. (8:02) This is a company that, in addition to importing monkeys, (8:07) also ran a beagle factory farm that supplied beagles to laboratory experiments. (8:12) The Department of Justice ended up coming down on this company.
 
(8:16) They took dogs who were in acute distress out of there and eventually shut the entire place down. (8:23) That's how hideous this place was. (8:25) And InVigo even pled guilty to conspiracy to violate the Federal Animal Welfare Act, (8:32) as well as the Federal Clean Water Act, (8:34) because they were also not properly treating the water coming out of this facility.
 
(8:40) The Humane Society of the United States is carrying out its largest animal rescue ever.(8:46) 4,000 beagles rescued from the Cumberland, Virginia, breeding facility run by research company InVigo. (8:52) We knew what this man was capable of.
 
(8:54) He was in charge of that facility when the undercover investigations were going on, when the USDA was coming in. (9:00) What I don't understand is how these people are on all these boards and no one does research. (9:07) Now we invite any company mentioned on to respond,(9:11) but you're saying essentially the company that is trying to build this massive 30,000 monkey facility in Georgia (9:20) that has caused such an uproar is connected, very much involved or overlapping with the InVigo company, (9:30) which had made headlines because they were forced to shut down (9:35) and 4,000 of the beagles they bred were rescued and put into loving homes.
 
Is that correct? (9:44) That is absolutely correct. (9:46) One of the things that I think people are starting to understand even more is that these companies that use beagles also use monkeys.(10:00) The monkeys kind of pay in many ways to support some of the beagle use infrastructure(10:06) because these companies are making tens of thousands, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 selling these monkeys to experimenters.
 
(10:16) But monkeys and beagles, they are the species that are kind of underpinning this entire industry around relying upon animal models (10:27) to supposedly give us better human drugs and treatments. (10:31) And my goodness, the suffering is undeniable. The bad science is on full display.
 
(10:40) And then you have Bainbridge. You know what? Bainbridge, you know how much I love the folks in Bainbridge, Jane? (10:48) Bainbridge, they've stuck that spear in the ground right there in their town and said, no more. We are ground zero.
 
(10:56) We are a community who is going to, we are at the front lines of this industry trying to expand and put this massive facility in our town. (11:07) And they said no, and they are fighting tooth and nail. (11:10) Well, are we getting ready to roll into year three of this legal battle? And it goes on.
 
(11:16) Where does the legal battle stand? (11:19) The state officials have now stepped into one lawsuit. They're aimed at moving the monkey project forward. (11:25) Local residents have filed multiple additional lawsuits.
 
(11:30) They argue that the project was advanced without proper transparency. (11:33) And, you know, that's that's the key in this industry. (11:36) They cannot stand anyone to look closely at them.
 
(11:40) And I want to say, I mean, even though this has been going on for now, what, two years, two and a half years? (11:45) We're still in the beginning of it. And I can guarantee you, PETA, we will not leave this battle. (11:51) We will not.
 
We will not leave Bainbridge. We will not leave them unsupported. (11:57) And we will make sure that that facility in Bainbridge never breaks ground.
 
(12:02) It was supposed to a broken ground. I mean, they should already, according to their plan, they should have had monkeys in there by now. (12:07) They should have been selling monkeys and not a single brick has been laid.
 
(12:11) And that's because this community has stood up and said, no, not in my backyard. (12:18) Well, and meanwhile, all this is happening, this battle to stop the monkeys being imported at a time when the culture is shifting. (12:27) I'll just show you.
 
Here's a protest against animal testing happening outside of the biggest beagle breeder in the United States. (12:39) And there is all sorts of plans. There's a giant march planned in September from Albany to this facility to say no more animal experimentation.
 
(12:51) It's gone very mainstream. And certainly, you know about and the world knows about the rescue of beagles that occurred in Wisconsin at the Ridgeland Beagle Facility. (13:04) And that that became a globally reported on war with a series of what they call open rescues.
 
(13:13) This is the first rescue where about 24 beagles were taken into good homes. (13:20) And then you have the second rescue where it really became a war between the would be rescuers and law enforcement that hit the rescuers with tear gas and rubber bullets. (13:36) We can watch that for a second before getting your big picture commentary.
 
(13:43) The whole world is watching you. Do you know that? (14:07) And then you had because of that uproar, because of the global coverage, as up to a thousand would be rescuers were attacked with rubber bullets and tear gas, you had behind the scenes negotiation. (14:22) And finally, an announcement that these Ridgeland beagles would all get out.
 
(14:56) So the final thing I want to say before getting your commentary. (15:00) Big picture on where the culture stands on Vivisection. (15:05) After all that hullabaloo and how happy all Americans and people around the world were to see the beagles released and taken into good homes through nonprofit organizations like Beagle Freedom Project, etc.
 
(15:24) Then you had politicians falling over each other to speak out against Vivisection. (15:30) Here's a Republican incumbent. (15:32) But I have to point out, because we don't do partisan politics here.
 
(15:35) The Democratic opponent said very much even he was also speaking very much against the largest beagle breeding facility, the one in New York state. (15:47) Listen to this Republican congressman sound more like a radical animal rights activist. (15:54) And that, to me, indicates that the culture is changing.
 
(15:58) We have someone in the crowd here from England. (16:02) Someone from Washington state. (16:06) I mean, since since I have joined this fight, I have heard from people that have contacted my office from all 50 states.
 
(16:16) Because this is this is not just a local matter. (16:19) Although it's disgusting that this is a local matter that this is going on right here in New York state. (16:26) I had a long conversation this week with the USDA and talking about a lot of policy matters, talking about legislation that we're working on, talking about what their criteria and what they're allowed to do under the law with inspections.
 
(16:45) And they are woefully behind because the laws on a site like this, they do back to the 60s.(16:56) These animal testing regulations are far too old. (16:59) They need to be modernized.
 
(17:00) They need to be improved. (17:04) And I will say his opponent said, that's not enough.(17:08) We need to go further.
 
(17:10) And so literally, again, we don't engage in partisan politics or endorse any candidates.(17:17) But it was just fascinating to see a Republican and a Democrat literally falling over themselves to speak up against animal experimentation. (17:26) So you have all of that happening, a real cultural shift.
 
(17:29) I see it as on one side. (17:32) But then on the other side, you still have the primarily the government importing all these monkeys. (17:38) How is that possible? (17:40) Both of these happening at once.
 
(17:45) That we're going to unpack all that. (17:47) But first, I have to say, I met one of those vigilant beagles recently. (17:53) And to watch an animal who's been born and bred in that environment kind of open up and become a real dog, become this astonishing animal.
 
(18:07) I mean, it gives me goosebumps just thinking about knowing the resilience of the animals who are in captivity. (18:13) And I think that is, it's so critical for us to understand that they will find a way. (18:21) And I bring this up because we're going to be talking at some point about, you know, the 25,000 monkeys who are being kept in the National Primate Research Centers.
 
(18:29) Sanctuary is going to come for those animals. (18:31) And they will find a way to be macaques. (18:34) And you're right, Jane.
 
(18:36) The reason that's happening is because there is this bipartisan support when it comes to ending animal experimentation. (18:44) And I think that the people who are in charge, the people who aren't making money by experimenting on animals, the companies, the companies are making the money. (18:54) The industry is making the money.
 
(18:57) The government, the government itself is not importing the monkeys. (19:00) Now, the government has not shut the door on those importations. (19:04) And they have the ability to do that.
 
(19:06) And if they did that, I could retire. (19:10) I could be done and dusted. (19:11) But I think that you touched on something.
 
(19:14) This is a cultural moment. (19:16) Everything is coming together. (19:18) We have Democrats and Republicans coming together saying, let's support the Primate Act.
 
(19:26) We had the FDA Modernization Act 3.0 was just passed. (19:35) We've got the CDC ending its use of monkeys and sending them to sanctuary. (19:41) We have NIH dramatically reducing the amount of funding going towards primate experimentation.
 
(19:47) And we have the world looking at the animals, generally the beagles, who are inside these facilities. (19:54) But the beagles are kind of like the gateway to see the monkeys. (19:56) If you can see the beagles, give me a minute and let me show you the monkeys who are in there.
 
(20:02) Because you will feel the same way about those monkeys that you feel about the beagles.(20:07) These are animals who are us. (20:11) These monkeys love the same way that we do.
 
(20:14) They care for their young the same way. (20:15) They protect each other. (20:18) They quarrel and they quibble and they can get jealous in the same way.
 
(20:21) They are us. (20:22) And the last place that they belong are in these crates, in these cages, in these massive monkey breeding facilities in Asia. (20:32) These animals belong in the forests of Asia and Mauritius.
 
(20:36) Those are their homes. (20:38) That's where they are keystone species. (20:40) That's where they have been there for millions of years in harmony with those environments.
 
(20:46) Until this massive U.S. industry, which is driven by money, not by science, (20:53) this industry driven by money, saw them and said, (20:56) Hey, I'll take you and you and you and you and you and you, tens of thousands, (21:02) almost 300,000 of them, just within the last decade or so. (21:06) That's no species, no animal, no matter how resilient, how adaptable, (21:14) can withstand an industry who has put a target on their back. (21:19) So that's why, you know, the Primate Act was introduced in the House back in April.
 
(21:26) The Primate Act stands for preventing risky importation of monkeys to avoid toxic exposures. (21:34) Greg Stubbe, Republican, Deanna Titus, Democrat, both put this act forward.(21:40) And what it does, it's really very simple.
 
(21:42) It attacks the problem at the source. (21:44) It basically says, you don't, it doesn't just protect the monkeys. (21:49) It eliminates the pathway by which these dangerous pathogens,(21:53) which these monkeys are carrying because they're caught up in this horrible system,(21:57) that these monkeys carry when they're imported to the U.S. (22:00) So the Primate Act says, shut the door.
 
(22:02) No more primate importation for experimentation. (22:05) It's not going to stop any other legal importation of primates for zoos. (22:11) But for primates who are destined for experimentation, no.
 
(22:15) That door is going to be shut by the Primate Act. (22:18) And I think, I encourage everyone to go to PETA.org forward slash Primate Act. (22:24) And you can actually reach out to your representative there.
 
(22:27) It's very easy. (22:28) If you click, you can send them an email and ask them to co-sponsor to support this. (22:35) And Jane, we need that because I promise you, the industry, the import industry, (22:41) the experimentation industry is banging down the doors of these legislators as well (22:47) and saying, please, please, no, no, no, no.
 
(22:49) We've got to have monkeys. (22:50) No, don't stop the flow of monkeys. (22:51) We need monkeys.
 
(22:53) We don't need monkeys. (22:54) Science no longer needs monkeys. (22:56) Science needs human relevant science, not a monkey business.
 
(23:02) You bring up a very important point is that for the first time in history now, (23:09) we have high tech methods that are so much more. (23:14) Well, one could argue animal experimentation was always off. (23:19) Like I said, all the things that they're purporting to cure.
 
(23:21) I remember when I started in the news business, what, 30, 40 years ago, (23:26) they were asking me to march for a cure here, there and everywhere. (23:29) And as soon as I started asking questions about where's the money going, (23:32) you're off the hook. (23:33) You don't have to lead the march.
 
(23:35) They didn't want anybody asking questions. (23:36) And I'll never forget that. (23:37) That was a very big one of these march for the cure groups, (23:41) a cure that has never been found while they torture how many animals, (23:45) spend millions of tax dollars, et cetera, et cetera.
 
(23:48) But the point is now we are at a point in the 21st century where we have organs on a chip,(23:55) where we have AI, where we have quantum computing that can solve problems (24:00) that would take humans like a hundred years in five minutes. (24:04) I may be exaggerating slightly, but these are extraordinary tools. (24:09) And we've seen them affect every other aspect of human life.
 
(24:14) And now they are providing a solution to those who would argue we need to use animals.(24:22) Well, no, we have all these other tools that are more effective. (24:25) And the scientists themselves are saying it.
 
(24:28) And now there's a new government agency under the National Institutes of Health called ARIVA (24:32) that is specifically tasked with connecting that technology with the experiment(24:41) to get rid of animal experimentation. (24:43) So I don't understand how the monkey importation is still happening (24:47) when we've got all these positive developments. (24:51) Let's talk about ARIVA.
 
(24:53) The Office of Research, Innovation, Validation, and Application. (24:58) You know, you don't have NIH investing in an office like that (25:03) and without the recognition that you need this, (25:07) that this validation that the animal models have not produced, (25:11) that they've not translated, they've not given us. (25:16) That system, that old system, had tremendous limitations.
 
(25:19) And ARIVA is basically NIH's way of saying, (25:24) we really have to put our dollars, put our support behind innovative research. (25:31) All those things you were talking about, the organs on the chips, the machine learning, the big data. (25:37) I mean, basically we have centuries of data that we can put into these machine learning models (25:44) that can actually give us these basic answers that the monkeys and the mice and the beagles (25:51) continually fail to produce answers that are relevant to humans.
 
(25:56) And so why do we still have monkeys coming in? (25:58) Why do we still have 100,000 of them here in the U.S. right now? (26:05) In part, I think it is a little bit of inertia, a lot of fear. (26:11) These companies know that the end is very near, (26:15) but they also know that a plane load of monkeys coming in is worth about $25 million. (26:25) That is a huge incentive for them.
 
(26:29) And I think we've talked about this before. (26:32) Animal experimenters are some of the most conservative scientists, (26:37) conservative people when it comes to innovative thought of trying new techniques. (26:43) They know how to do one thing.
 
(26:45) They know how to put something into a monkey or a beagle or a mouse and take a bit of it out and look at it. (26:51) They don't know how to use and develop organs on the chips. (26:54) They don't know how to handle big data.
 
(26:58) They know one thing. (26:59) How can I use an animal? (27:01) And they're going to hold on to each one of those tails as long as they can. (27:06) And our job is to make it so that we pry their fingers, literally prying their fingers off of those animals.
 
(27:16) But I mean, there's real hope going on now. (27:20) Again, you've got ARIVA. (27:21) You've got the FDA Modernization Act 3.0. (27:25) You've got the Primate Act.
 
(27:27) You've got parts of this government working to really dry up the amount of money going to primate experimentation. (27:35) We just need to make sure that this government acts. (27:39) They need to act for the animals and to tell industry, you're done.
 
(27:45) You take your resources and focus them on these new technologies. (27:51) These human relevant technologies. (27:53) Leave the monkeys, the mice, the beagles, the ferrets alone.
 
(27:59) Bring us up to date. (28:00) Where does the Modernization Act, where is it now? (28:04) So again, it just passed this morning. (28:07) The thing about this that's extraordinary is that the FDA is a pretty conservative agency.
 
(28:14) And they are saying, hey, all these animal tests that we required before, all this kind of animal data, we realize now, we accept now. (28:23) We will take non-animal methods, new alternative methods for you, client, to test your drug and treatments on. (28:31) We will take data that's relevant.
 
(28:34) That is huge change. (28:36) And that does mean something to Bainbridge. (28:38) Because for the Bainbridge folks, that's basically saying the demand for monkeys will decrease.
 
(28:46) And when the demand decreases, again, they're not going to invest. (28:51) I mean, say for human medicines, one, again, they've not made a single brick. (28:55) We've got them tied up in the courts.
 
(28:57) They're not making any money on this. (28:59) The FDA Modernization Act and the Primate Act would be the final nail in their coffin. (29:06) Well, I'll say I've worked with PETA on previous battles.
 
(29:11) The attempt to build a lab monkey breeding facility in Puerto Rico that went all the way up to the Puerto Rican Supreme Court that it was built already and they wouldn't let it open. (29:24) God bless them. (29:25) But this is another battle.
 
(29:27) It seems like they always keep popping up. (29:30) We have the universities that get a cut off of animal experimenters fighting back, saying we need to keep our programs. (29:37) I hear it all the time when I watch the news.
 
(29:40) And ironically, it is progressive media to a large degree that says we're killing research, we're killing science. (29:49) How do we get to those people and those who are academics and convince them that they are on the wrong side of history? (29:58) And even if they completely disagree with this administration, you know, even a broken clock is right twice a day, you might say. (30:09) Exactly.
 
I mean, you laid it out really well. (30:12) It's animal science is bad science. (30:17) It is simply, it is bad science.
 
PETA is absolutely, we are not anti-science. (30:24) We have divisions of scientists. (30:26) We are focused on non-animal methods, new alternative methods.
 
(30:30) We support it. We fund it. (30:32) We write about it.
 
We publish papers about it. (30:35) I'm going to the Hill tomorrow to talk about this. (30:40) But Jane, the problem is the academics who only ever used animals, they see their livelihood drying up.
 
(30:47) So they're not thinking with their scientific brain. (30:49) They're thinking with their pocketbook. (30:51) They're thinking with their wallet.
 
(30:53) They're thinking, well, when I can't get my NIH grant, what am I going to do? (30:57) How am I going to maintain my $350,000 a year salary that I've been getting when my multimillion dollar grants are drying up? (31:06) I'm sorry, Dr. Academic. (31:11) You had your shot. (31:13) You went through hundreds, thousands of animals.
 
(31:18) You made promises about vaccines and treatments that never came through. (31:23) Your time is done. (31:25) So step aside and let the scientists who are doing the relevant science, the human-based science, let them to the forefront.
 
(31:34) Let that be the science that leads to improvements in human health because the animal science consistently doesn't. (31:42) It's slow science. It misdirects science.
 
(31:44) It absorbs resources and it kills millions of monkeys.

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