"These are not the side effects of the medication. These are the effects of the medication." — R.D. Laing
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The former head of the American Psychiatric Association once called Robert Whitaker "a menace to society." Bob says he'd put it on his gravestone. In this conversation, Michael traces the through-line from the unlikely apprenticeships that taught Bob to take seriously the people most of the world had discounted - driving a New York cab with no partition in the late 1970s, working the overnight desk at an SRO hotel, running a tutoring program inside Attica prison after the riots - to the 1998 Boston Globe investigation where he found himself holding two irreconcilable narratives: one from the experts, one from the patients. The book that followed, Mad in America, did something simple and unforgivable. It took the patients' story seriously, followed the data, and found that the data agreed with them. They walk through the World Health Organization's own cross-cultural findings, the Harvard study showing long-term outcomes had declined, the Harrow-Jobe data Bob brought back to the researchers themselves, and the central tragedy his decades of work circle back to: a model of care that transforms what could be episodic difficulties into lifelong chronic conditions.
The good news, Bob argues, is that the official narrative has collapsed in the research literature. The bad news is that prescribing practices haven't.
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"We have a form of care that transforms what could be episodic problems into chronic conditions." — Robert Whitaker
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Relevant Links
Follow us on
psychophobia.com | Substack | LinkedIn | Instagram | Youtube
Follow Bob
Mad In America
Books
Mad In America | Anatomy of an Epidemic | Psychiatry Under the Influence
Send us a message: https://www.speakpipe.com/psychophobia
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Robert Whitaker is an American journalist and author who has won numerous awards as a journalist covering medicine and science, including the George Polk Award for Medical Writing and a National Association for Science Writers' Award for best magazine article. In 1998, he co-wrote a series on psychiatric research for the Boston Globe that was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service. His first book, Mad in America, was named by Discover magazine as one of the best science books of 2002. Anatomy of an Epidemic won the 2010 Investigative Reporters and Editors book award for best investigative journalism. He is the publisher ofmadinamerica.com. He is a Clinical Assistant Professor (Adjunct) in the Lewis Katz School of Medicine at Temple University, Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Science.
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Dr. Michael R. Montgomery is an existential psychoanalyst whose work explores the far edges of human experience, including complex trauma, extreme states, addiction, and the psychological aftermath of conflict. Trained at Regent's University London, the Tavistock and Portman, and the Anna Freud Centre, his clinical work focuses primarily on community-based care for individuals often excluded from traditional mental health systems. He is faculty, and a supervising analyst at the New School for Existential Psychoanalysis, CA. He is the founder ofLogic23.com andPeacefire.us and a regular contributor to the Society for Existential Analysis, the R.D. Laing Symposium, and ISPS-US. He has published more than 30 peer-reviewed works and is currently developing a new book alongside the psychophobia* podcast.
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Episode Chapters
00:00:05 – Intro & Why This Episode Took So Long
00:01:25 – The Yellow Cab: Driving New York 1978-1984
00:04:45 – No Partition: The Vulnerability of the Encounter
00:08:28 – The SRO Hotel, Orwell & The Stories Told at 3 AM
00:11:36 – Inside Attica: Tutoring After the Riots
00:17:59 – A Menace to Society: The Question
00:19:11 – The Boston Globe Series & Two Competing Narratives
00:24:48 – The Harvard Study & The WHO Cross-Cultural Findings
00:30:23 – Why Being Challenged Made the Work Stronger
00:31:27 – Anatomy of an Epidemic & The Harrow-Jobe Story
00:38:07 – Why Informed Consent Is Treated as a Threat
00:42:17 – Michael's Story: Walking Onto the Psychiatric Ward
00:43:39 – Malaysia & The Business of Big Pharma
00:48:25 – Two Impulses Behind Broken Care
00:50:04 – Episodic Problems Made Chronic
00:50:52 – Open Dialogue, The Collapse of the Narrative & Today's Mismatch
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Please note that while I am a therapist, I am not your therapist. This podcast explores mental health and the human experience, but it is not a substitute for therapy, medical care, or professional advice. Any decisions regarding your mental health, including changes to medication or treatment, should be made in consultation with a qualified healthcare professional you trust.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit psychophobia.substack.com
