In this episode, Ben chats w/ LA singer/songwriter Magdalene about her transformation from indie rock to Britney Spears/Madonna style pop. The duo also discuss growing up in creative isolation, gaslighting your way to success, playing in Surf Curse, the genius of early 00s pop production, modern hack songwriting, religion and pop, the nature of the self, and working with Slush Puppy and Cole from Model/Actriz.

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