Lessons from the Abdul El-Sayed vs. Tommy video about calling out bias

Want to keep the conversation going? Dr. Carter is joining us for a live author Q&A inside the Messy Liberation Circle. Bring your questions, your stories, and your trickiest “was that racist?” moments: https://messyliberation.com/community/

What do you actually do when someone you love says something racist? On this episode of Messy Liberation, hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Taina Brown talk with social psychologist and DEI practitioner Dr. Evelyn R. Carter, author of Was That Racist? How to Detect, Interrupt, and Unlearn Bias in Everyday Life. They dig into why so many well-meaning people freeze instead of confronting racism, why speaking up is everyone’s responsibility (especially white folks), and the deceptively simple question that can disarm bias in the moment.

In this episode, we get into:
• Why “it’s not my place” is a cop-out, and why people outside a targeted group are often heard more when they call out bias
• Treating that pounding heart and churning stomach as a signal to engage, not flee
• The gap between the 80% of people who say they’d speak up and the 25–33% who actually do (plus a hand-washing detour on “moral hygiene”)
• What Dr. Abdul El-Sayed’s viral exchange with “Tommy” teaches us about staying calm and asking questions
• Why “What makes you say that?” beats preparing for a debate
• Confrontation as a practiced skill, and the difference between being kind and being nice
• How white people speaking up can create “places of rest” for people of color
• Why 98% of confronting happens with friends, family, and acquaintances, not strangers
• “What about racism against white people?” Racial bias vs. racism, explained
• Separating personal morality from systemic racism so we can actually do the work

Timestamps
00:40 – Monthly author Q&As coming to the Messy Liberation Circle
01:18 – Why Dr. Carter wrote Was That Racist?
02:48 – “Is it my place?” Speaking up when it’s not your lived experience
07:07 – Toxic individualism and the “not my business” mindset
08:49 – Listen to your body: discomfort as a call to engage
11:02 – 80% say they’d speak up; only 25–33% do
13:37 – The Abdul El-Sayed vs. “Tommy” video
18:44 – Confronting bias is a skill: kind vs. nice
21:24 – Confronting is about relationship: the 98% vs. 2% finding
24:40 – Why online arguments skew to the extremes
28:44 – Racial bias vs. racism
30:28 – How anyone, of any race, can uphold white supremacy
32:22 – Separating morality from systemic racism

Resources Mentioned
• Was That Racist? How to Detect, Interrupt, and Unlearn Bias in Everyday Life by Dr. Evelyn R. Carter
• Messy Liberation Circle, including the upcoming author Q&A with Dr. Carter
• Yes and Otherwise conversation with Dr. Carter
• Dr. Abdul El-Sayed responds to “Tommy”

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