Robert Zoellick, former U.S. Trade Representative, Deputy Secretary of State, and President of the World Bank, joins Clearer Than Truth for a wide-ranging conversation about globalization, trade, American power, and the future of the international order.
Zoellick argues that the backlash against globalization has become intertwined with a broader backlash against elites and established institutions—but warns that the United States risks responding to legitimate concerns in ways that ultimately make the country weaker. He defends the strategic logic behind NAFTA and North American economic integration, arguing that a stronger relationship with Canada and Mexico gives the United States a powerful economic and security advantage in a world increasingly shaped by China.
The conversation then turns to the weaponization of economic interdependence, protectionism, supply-chain resilience, and the danger of using national security as a justification for restricting trade. Zoellick argues that the United States should build greater resilience and redundancy where necessary—but shouldn't mistake economic isolation for security. He makes a similar case regarding China: compete aggressively in critical areas, but remain focused on staying technologically ahead rather than simply trying to shut the world off.
Zoellick also examines the health of America's democratic institutions and the international alliances that underpin U.S. power. He warns that undermining confidence in elections, the rule of law, independent institutions, and America's commitments to allies can have consequences far beyond domestic politics. Drawing on his experience during the end of the Cold War and the global financial crisis, he argues that institutions can adapt to profound changes—but they must be strengthened rather than dismantled.
The episode ultimately becomes a discussion about what comes next. Zoellick believes the international system is being disrupted and that a new generation will have an opportunity to reshape it. His advice is straightforward: avoid unnecessary conflicts, maintain openness to capital and talented people, and preserve the alliances and institutions that allow the United States to lead without having to dominate.
00:00 Robert Zoellick on the Backlash Against Globalization
01:14 Was NAFTA a Mistake?
02:21 Why Mexico Joined NAFTA
03:48 Is America Destroying North America?
04:35 The Strategic Case for North American Integration
06:31 Why America Needs Mexico and Canada
08:10 America's Relationship With Canada
09:59 Globalization Isn't Going Away
10:25 How Economic Interdependence Can Be Weaponized
12:07 The Hidden Cost of Protectionism
13:24 Should America Buy From China?
14:14 Zoellick's Biggest Regret About NAFTA
16:35 Can Trade Rules Keep Up With China?
18:29 The Real Economics of U.S.-Canada Trade
20:25 Why Economic Change Creates Political Backlash
21:09 Can America's Institutions Survive?
22:02 The Threat to American Democracy
23:14 Is Congress Losing Its Power?
24:07 Could America's Alliances Unravel?
25:23 The Lessons of the Cold War
26:42 Was NATO Expansion a Mistake?
27:31 Why NATO Still Matters
28:18 How to Support Ukraine Without NATO Membership
29:02 Can America Adapt the World Order?
30:32 America Has Always Had to Fight for Consensus
31:24 Can America Manage Competition With China?
32:05 Can the U.S. and China Cooperate on AI?
32:26 Don't Make America More Like China
34:31 America's Energy Security Problem
36:20 Why Allies Matter in a Conflict With China
37:10 The Best Strategy Against China
37:54 Can America's Institutions Survive Another Crisis?
39:19 The Lesson of the Global Financial Crisis
40:22 Why America Still Has to Lead
40:47 The Next Generation Will Remake the World
41:12 Zoellick's Advice for the Future
42:09 Closing Thoughts
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