The Mantle of Agency (Lisa Kahn)

In this soul-stirring episode, Gail Doby welcomes long-term collaborator and peer Lisa Kahn back to the podcast to look at the cartography of a 12-year professional relationship. Lisa reflects on her multi-generational roots in design, her early days as an in-house designer for Lutron Electronics, and the critical moment she hit deep-seated burnout.

The heart of the episode explores the anatomy of a business turnaround. Lisa shares an unforgettable strategy from 2009 when, staring down a zero-cash payroll nightmare and a dropped design deposit, she used her credit card to buy 50 blank notes. By writing unprompted, radical “love letters” of gratitude to 50 critical mentors and allies, she completely shifted her financial energy current—resulting in a $3 million influx of business in under 60 days without asking for a single project. Furthermore, Lisa and Gail lean into a beautiful, vulnerable space regarding their concurrent work on trauma processing, addressing the dark shadows, and moving beyond the exhausting habits of people-pleasing and self-protection.

In this episode, you’ll hear about:

• The Academic Rejection: Why Lisa initially explored transitioning to design education, only to realize the traditional structure of academia couldn’t contain her vision.
• Rethinking How We Work: Gail’s pivotal advice to Lisa that it wasn’t the interior design profession burning her out, but the structural architecture of how she was executing her business.
• Sanctuary as a Tool for Resilience: Moving past the superficiality of aesthetics to design rooms that physically cradle the human nervous system through ritual, incense, and sound.
• A Survivor’s Light: Lisa opens up about coming to terms with surviving past domestic violence, and how she translates that survival into a profound message of healing through physical environments.
• The Neuroscience of Aesthetics: Lisa’s current academic obsession with neuroaesthetics, sacred geometry, and Harvard’s 85-year landmark study on human connection.
• The Barn at Sanctuary Naples: A breakdown of Lisa’s incoming 5-acre Florida headquarters, detailing workshop spaces, content studios, an outdoor music amphitheater, and immersive live learning retreats.

Lisa has been a guest on the podcast before. Listen back to her previous episode, “Grow As You Go or No?”, here.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full show notes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s15e2-shownotes

Episode Transcript

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

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GAIL DOBY
Welcome to the Creative Genius Podcast. Lisa, this is number three for us. We’ve done two others before. Yes.

LISA KAHN
I have loved both, so honored to be back.

GAIL DOBY
It’s great to have you back. And it’s so interesting ’cause I looked back at your records to see when you and I met and it was January twentieth, two thousand fourteen.

LISA KAHN
How about that? It’s been a hot minute.

GAIL DOBY
A hot minute. Hot 12 minutes. Twelve more minutes. Yeah. Well, I thought we would just kind of meander down a path today. So we’ll see where this path takes us. And I’d love for you to just take it where you’d like to. So let’s start first with how you got into design.

LISA KAHN
Yeah.

LISA KAHN
Well, I actually originally got into design because honestly, I grew up in a family business and my mom is and was a designer. And so, you know, it was a very natural thing for me to do. you know, design was very much part of my household. You know, it was what I did on spring breaks, it was what I did on summer vacations, you know, we really

all worked as a family. there were three kids in my family. And so all five of us would climb in the car during summers and drive to the business and all work there because it was also a retail store and be involved with all of that. So yeah, it was just a very natural thing for me to do. It was not actually what I thought I wanted to do. You know, my mom said to me, Lisa, you’ve got a knack for this. You really should follow design and do it. And I’m like, no way. You know, this was in Northwest Ohio. Everything was on such tight budgets and everything was

At that point, you know, this was a long time ago. So Waverly was a division of Schumacher and they put out these wallpaper books that had like 12 things that all matched with borders and fabrics and everything. And that’s what you did for everybody. And I just thought to myself, if I have to be working out of these Waverly books for the rest of my life, I just don’t think I have the fortitude. but you know, I just hadn’t really been exposed. And so when I went to college and ended up changing my major from business to design,

because I just realized at some point that I really needed that hands-on creative outlet every single day. it really my life went in directions. I couldn’t have imagined, you know, I ended up taking a job for Lutron Electronics as their corporate interior designer right out of school, which took me away from Ohio to Pennsylvania. And then I got married there and, you know, ended up moving to Florida and really getting into design then. And that was when I really saw.

what design could be, because when you have bigger budgets, bigger projects, you know, bigger contacts, there is a world out there that I just had no exposure to. And that’s when I really fell in love with our profession. It really is just truly what I’m meant to be doing.

GAIL DOBY
It’s a natural for you. I look at all of your board behind, all the inspiration, all the things you have behind you. And it I just look at how and I just think about how it connects to all the projects I’ve seen of yours and yeah that through line that you have of the peaceful, the serenity, the

all the things that are so important to you. So it’s really cool to see that ’cause that is authentically you. And I know you and I’ve had a few conversations about being authentic to your brand, right?

LISA KAHN
Exactly. Pivotal one scale. Life changing. Yes.

GAIL DOBY
Well, it was better than the day when you said this was like what was a near death experience?

LISA KAHN
Exactly. my gosh.

GAIL DOBY
That kinda.

LISA KAHN
So good. It does. You know, Gail, you have helped me transform my life more than once. So I have to thank you for that.

GAIL DOBY
Well, I I hope it’s in a positive way. gosh. So all right. So you went to Lutron, you got married, you moved to Florida, you had kids, you found that this was your passion. This is all great. It’s wonderful. And then what happened?

LISA KAHN
you know it is

LISA KAHN
You know, and then after I had done a bunch of amazing projects, we had really, you know, grown the firm, I just found myself really burned out. and I couldn’t figure out why. I just really thought I fell out of love with design. I thought that I didn’t want to do this anymore. I explored all kinds of things. I explored what would happen if I became a sales rep. I’ve known lots of designers who’ve gone and done that. I looked at what would happen if I left the

field of actually designing and went into education because I love teaching and I love young people and I would love to inspire, you know, the next generation of designers. But when I looked into that and met with one of the universities, I realized that, you know, I don’t know that the world of academia is quite ready for LisaCon. So that was not really a great fit. And the more that I looked around, I just felt like I was thwarted at every turn. And it was actually around that time

that one of my design colleagues recommended that I call you. And so you and I had a conversation. You were on the way somewhere. I don’t remember what it was. You were doing something amazing, I’m sure. And as I was telling you how burned out I was and how I was just really thinking about how I could move into a different sector of the industry and what else I could do, you suggested really something that changed my life in that moment. And you said, you know, I don’t.

actually think it’s the industry that’s burning you out, Lisa. I think it’s the way you’re working in the industry. And that really caught me up short. And I thought, what on earth could she mean? But yet it resonated with me. And I at that point, you know, scheduled a time for us to get together and really delve into my business because I realized that you really could be right. And I had never had anybody really look into

you know, the nooks and crannies of my business, look at the way that I was working, building my team, you know, structuring things. I had just never had anyone do that before. And so working at that with you, I realized you were right. And I really was the way that I was working. And so by making some changes, by making some strategic hires, by reworking the way I spent my time and the things that I was focusing on, delegating things that really were not my joy.

LISA KAHN
really allowing other people to have the freedom to do their job and really perform for me and not being micromanaging was another one. I mean, there were just so many things that I was doing that were really making me be unhappy. And it really wasn’t the actual design itself. And truly leaving it, I think I would miss it even today.

GAIL DOBY
That’s so good to hear because we have of course known each other for a very long time. And I’ve seen you go through a lot of ups and downs with this. And even yeah after that time you had some other ups and downs. And why don’t you share one or two of those that were pivotal for you in in terms of really understanding who you were and maybe how you were in the business?

LISA KAHN
You know, I think that we have been through all kinds of ups and downs. I mean, we’ve just been through ups and downs within the last few months. I think it’s really part of being a an entrepreneur. It’s part of owning a business. And what’s so interesting to me is I feel like when we start businesses and we’re we’re young, we’re hungry, we have all these big ideas, these dreams, we have absolutely no idea what we’re in for, in truth. And as designers, no one truly teaches us unless we get a business degree.

how to read financials, how to hire people, how to structure contracts, how to negotiate. Nobody teaches us how to market. Nobody teaches us how to really build systems that allow us to visualize our work and have our teams be productive and everybody, you know, working together with a really good solid culture. And that is something that really has helped me weather the storms is having a contact like you.

and like some of my other design colleagues that I call on, you know, when times are hard and I need guidance and advice and, you know, other suggestions and points of view. but when I think about just for example, I remember back in you know, this is maybe mid, you know, like 2009, 2010. This is even before I met you, I was going through a time of a cash crunch that was so profound I wasn’t even sure how I was gonna make my next payroll. It was just one of those times I was laying awake.

At night I was just sick with worry about all of it. I was looking at my account balance going down. And you know, one of my clients fired us and we had to return, you know, a big design deposit. And as I was living through that time, and I thought to myself, what is the opposite of how I’m feeling right now? Like I’m just feeling so full of fear and anxiety and unhappiness. What is the opposite of that? And I decided at the time it was gratitude. And so what might that look like?

And how could I express some gratitude and would that help me turn things around? And it’s funny because I took my credit card, because very little cash at the moment, and I went and I bought 50 cards at the local store blank cards, and I made a list of 50 people that had really impacted me over the last year. And I just really thought about that. I stepped out of that place of fear and I thought, all right, what what do I appreciate about this person?

LISA KAHN
I didn’t ask for anything, and I just wrote each one of them a note, a thank you love note, a little love letter. And this is why I love you. Thank you for everything that you’ve done for me. You know, know that you are on my heart, and if you ever need me, call on me. And I started sending these notes. I decided I would send them all out by like the middle of November. And as I was writing them, I will tell you that in the beginning I did not feel thankful. I didn’t, I didn’t feel gratitude, even to the people that I was writing to, because I was so still kind of caught up.

And it’s funny though, because as I mailed the first few, and then I wrote a few more, and then I wrote a few more. You know, I started feeling my spirit lift. Like I just felt like, you know, I really am grateful for all these people. And so the last ones I wrote with such joy in my heart. And what’s funny is that by the time I had them all sent out, I heard back from every single person. I did. I got calls, I got flowers.

GAIL DOBY
Wow.

LISA KAHN
It was great. I got emails, I got messages back, I got texts, and it was just so incredible. And what’s amazing is so that was mid November, without asking for anything, by January third, I had booked three million dollars worth of business.

GAIL DOBY
Oof. Wow.

LISA KAHN
Gratitude is so powerful. And so when you ask about, you know, some of those times that we go through that are turbulent, that, you know, times are really down, that we feel really unhappy, or, you know, we’re going through these shifts, how do we get out of them? You know, that was one way that I did. And, you know, there have been all kinds of other ways that I have. And what’s funny to me about one of my more recent periods of turbulence that I’ve gone through just in the past few months, is that

You know, we have this philosophy of creating spaces of sanctuary. And you know this is very personal to me. You know that I began this by creating spaces of sanctuary for my own family. And so my own personal sanctuary, which I’m sitting in right now, you are here live with me, has really developed over the years. You know, it’s been probably, I don’t know, 14, 16 years that I really have been working on this space and evolving it.

And evolving what I do here, evolving how I perceive it, evolving the rituals and the daily practices, you know, the philosophy that has really emerged from all of it. And so when I went through my most recent turbulent time, and you feel that very despondent, dark feeling, you think, I’ve never felt this bad. No one’s ever gone through this before. And I came home, and even though I didn’t feel it, again, I didn’t feel like doing it, I did the things that make me feel better. I grabbed my journal.

Did I feel like writing? No, but I did. It’s like a muscle, right? You exercise these muscles. I lit the candles, I put on the soft music, I put in a little stick of incense, I did all of the things that help me go from up here to down here. And you know what’s funny? It still works like a charm. And because I have evolved this space so beautifully to fit every single thing that cradles me, my body, my spirit, my energy.

It picked me up almost immediately. I did not stay down, you know, at previous times when I’ve gone through these darker periods, sometimes it’s weeks as I cycle through these things and I work through it and I process what’s going on. But now with the support system that I’ve built for myself, it really happens much, much more quickly. And I find myself being so much more resilient. I can bounce back, I can respond, and I can sometimes it feels to me like I climb a ladder, right? I get

LISA KAHN
off of the ground level where the planes are taking off and I climb the ladder, climb it, climb it, and I’m up at 30,000 feet. And all of a sudden I can see and it’s such a different way of looking at whatever it is that’s bothering me, whatever it is that set me off, whatever it is that caused the turbulence. Because from 30,000 feet, you know, these things are quite small. And you’re able to see them in relation to all of the other things in the landscape of your life. So that has also been just really remarkable to me.

And I love it because while Sanctuary is certainly a beautiful space, it always will be for me. It’s so much more than that. And it really, instead of growing out of a place of beauty and happiness, it really has grown out of a place of turmoil and sometimes terror. And it’s grown out of frustration and it’s grown out of fear and all of those things, you know, the nexus of that coming out of such, I don’t know.

Things that are hard, right? Things that are tough. I just think that it’s beautiful how something can bloom out of that. It reminds me of the plants and flowers that grow out of the rocks.

GAIL DOBY
I think that’s so well said and it’s so interesting. I’ve been doing some really deep work and we’ll chat about that more later, but

LISA KAHN
I look forward to that.

GAIL DOBY
There’s something called motivational cartography, which is really understanding what’s deep within somebody’s soul. And that’s one of those things as I’ve been doing some really deep work lately that I found out that I just have this natural thing that makes me understand where people have come from, which is kind of why I wanted to talk about this timeline for you over this past 12 years that we’ve known each other.

Because to me we do have this cartography of our lives. And I I do believe that the things that are the hardest that cause us to have to pivot, that cause us to have to think about what our real motivations in life are. Yeah. That’s what really drives the growth and the change. And I think in ultimately the satisfaction because it’s not

a peaceful, easy journey to joy or to realization of comfort.

LISA KAHN
Or beaning.

GAIL DOBY
It all comes from the struggle and you have to go through that rocky bumpy period in order for you to get there. So you shared one of those and you had the divorce and all of that, but you’ve had a lot of those over the last 12 years. And if you were to just go back through and pick a few of those that were the most impactful, what were the big key lessons you got? What was it that happened and what if you

care to share and what was the biggest lesson you got from that?

LISA KAHN
well, you know that one of the hardest was when I was getting divorced and when my daughter started having seizures. And it just, you know, I also lost an employee. Like there’s just so much happening all at one time. And when all of those things lined up, you know, that is when the word sanctuary came to me. And I just really realized

You know, actually with your help, that this was a great direction to really take my business as well, because it really folds into such a beautiful design philosophy, and it really is what I truly value and believe. So an expression, you know, of my authentic self. And that is probably one of the most remarkable things that came out of a period of really deep and dark struggle. you know, more recently.

just kind of going back to those past few months, and we can pick a few in between as well if you still like, but you know, r really realizing and remembering through a little traumatic event that happened in my family that I am a survivor of domestic violence and I didn’t realize that before. So sorry.

GAIL DOBY
Yeah.

LISA KAHN
Looking at how these things have teed me up to be exactly the person I am today.

And so ready to shine a light for, I mean, how many other women are out there who have survived domestic violence more than we would like to count? And when I think about how the message that I have for them of how our spaces can truly support us and help us heal, help us find our center, that’s beautiful.

GAIL DOBY
Mm-hmm.

LISA KAHN
Really, really beautiful. So that one is a still a little tender, still a little emotional. and I’m sifting through all of that, but it’s also been I actually wouldn’t change that part of me because I know that I wouldn’t be sitting here talking to you today, and I know that I wouldn’t be doing some of the other exciting things that you know are going on in my life had I not had the push, the uncomfortableness. I had to sit in that uncomfortableness, I had to go back and process.

you know, things that I had buried for self-preservation, honestly, to get me through a period of time. But now it was time to resurrect them. You know, it was time to go back and reprocess a lot of old memories and a lot of old traumas that had happened so that I can incorporate them into the person that I am now, you know, so that I can bring, you know, those shadows into the sun. You know, how do we do that? And so that’s been an interesting journey for me. And as you have

Mentioned that you have been doing some deep work, me too. And it hasn’t been easy, but it has been important and it has been impactful. And I have been through probably a year that will I feel stronger now than I’ve ever felt. I feel more empowered now than I have ever felt. And I feel more that I really don’t need anyone else’s permission.

To do the things that I want to do and a sense of urgency to do them. Like if not now, when? If not me, then who? So that is a really great place to be in and to really gather about me my own mantle of agency, you know, my own sense of yes, I can do this and knowing that I can. And when I look back, you know, at the many, many, many events that have been so hard and transformational.

I really can rest in the assurance that the resources that I need to sort things out, no matter what life lobs at me next, I will find them. I am certain that I will find them. So, you know, assurance, resilience, these are the kind of things that have really arrived for me out of some of the hardest times that I have faced.

GAIL DOBY
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I I don’t think any of us will have the courage to go I mean, you wouldn’t choose these things to happen to you. Yeah. But when you look back in the rearview mirror, you can say, if that had not happened for me, I would not be who I am today and where I’m going today would not be the case. Yeah. You make different choices. Yeah.

LISA KAHN
Exactly.

GAIL DOBY
And you mean I I’ve never really talked about this to a lot of people, but in this deep work I’ve been doing, some of the things that I’ve discovered, which I I you know, I know my history and I grew up in a family of divorce as well, but my father was violent and my mother’s father was violent. So I saw this as a child. And so growing up with that, I became a protector and I would and I was the youngest child out of two of us and

But I was protecting the family. So I a lot of my behaviors that I’ve learned over the years are self-protecting. Yeah. So I get where you’re coming from. And a lot of the the behaviors that I’ve been aware of for myself that I don’t really want to continue at this point in my life are probably the only way I could really understand that was to go back and address those and address the shadows like you talked about too.

LISA KAHN
I really respect you for doing that work, Gail. I didn’t realize we were both going through that at the same time. That’s interesting. It’s just I don’t know.

GAIL DOBY
Very short time yeah, it’s a very short time frame and I’ll share more about that after we got off the call, but I’ll it’s actually I’ve only worked on it for two weeks and the wow massive shift that I’ve experienced is incredible. Ugh. So wow. Well how I would relate to you is Yeah. Me too.

LISA KAHN
So happy for

LISA KAHN
Yeah.

GAIL DOBY
Sometimes we have to face that that ugly, unpleasant fear, hurt, all the things that we went through, so that we can put it behind us. And the only way to do it is you can’t ignore it. You have to you have to assimilate it. You have to yeah. You have to bring it back in. Yeah. So good for you for surviving all this stuff, but the lessons you’ll learn and and what you’ll share with others and help others with.

Is gonna be that much stronger as a result of it.

LISA KAHN
You know, it reminds me a little bit. I have kind of laughed and thought about it. It’s a bit like you take all those experiences and you put them through the grinder and they become like mulch, right? It’s like fertilizer and mulch. And now we’re gonna put those around the trees because and they help make things stronger. You know, they help fertilize and grow and you know, inform what comes next. It’s funny that your experiences turned you into a protector. Mine turned me into a people pleaser. And you know, being a people pleaser for years, that is exhausting work.

And you rarely actually worry about what you need. You’re just constantly going through these gymnastics and yoga postures to try to please everyone around you, whether it’s your clients or your family or your ex now ex-husband. You know, I went through all these things where I was just trying to please everyone. And it’s funny because when I look back now and I think of some of the team members that I have lost over the years, both good and bad, you know, some of the good ones.

I actually think probably some of my people pleasing and sort of, you know, that turns into a bit of codependence. It creates a very unhealthy dynamic and it’s one I was completely unaware of. But now I look back and I see that I’m like, wow. You know, I think that it never is one person that ends a relationship. It always takes, you know, a combination of things from both people. And there have been some that have ended for me that I have been puzzled.

I’m like, how how did that end? Why did that end? You know, I love that person. You know, what where did that come from? But now that I understand this tendency that I have had and have put that behind me, I can see more clearly how, you know, I contributed to things being out of balance. You know, I contributed to things being somewhat unhealthy. And it feels really good to look forward and realize I don’t have to do that anymore.

GAIL DOBY
Mm. And I think I I would bring up here too, you talk about why those people aren’t here in your life now. But they were there for a season. People are there for seasons. And we have those seasons with people because they there’s a purpose for them to be there at that time. Not the whole time, but for a certain period of time. Yep. And I would agree. And that’s

LISA KAHN
Yep, for sure.

GAIL DOBY
those are kind of like our touchstones along the way that we have to we have to work within this really strange little winding path and we’re gonna run into those big rocks on the side and then it’s gonna carry them us over to the other side and we’re gonna go through this journey in our lives and it’s how we choose to show up for it and how we choose to respond to it that determines the maybe the happiness in our life.

LISA KAHN
Yeah, truly.

GAIL DOBY
Yeah. Well that’s interesting. And so on this path, and of course with sanctuary being a driving force for you, you went back and you got your masters. I I have a feeling you’re probably gonna get your PhD.

LISA KAHN
You know, they keep calling me. So, you know, I have a feeling I will eventually cave. It’s really I love learning because it goes back to that thing we were just talking about, that that elevated perspective. When you are able to take knowledge of the ancients all the way forward and really use that to have that higher perspective, it’s such a relief. You know, I think we get so caught

in the news cycles and the the things that we’re reading and the kind of dopamine hits of our phones and our computers and our tablets and the televisions and all that kind of stuff. I really love learning because it shuts all of that off and it just lets me really dip into something that is so much bigger than myself. That beautiful body of knowledge in the world. You know, I’m one of those little girls when I was small I used to love wandering through the library and I

would always think all those books, gosh, if you could read all of these books, imagine the knowledge that you could contain. Why still feel that way? And, you know, so it’s fun to go back and take classes and learn about whether it’s philosophy or neuroscience and neuroaesthetics and neuroarchitecture or, you know, depth psychology. Like these things are all really interesting to me. I just signed up for a class in sacred geometry because I’m so interested in how these forms show up as symbols. You know, they we do see them.

And some of the archetypal, you know, things that have come out of Jungian studies, but also we see them in our cathedrals, you know, we see them in nature, we see them in flowers, we see them in water, we see them everywhere. And I love that. And I I love to think about how these things that we see but don’t necessarily recognize as impactful, they are impactful to us.

GAIL DOBY
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it is fascinating. And I’m trying to remember which monk it was. A story from a long time past, but I remember seeing this video and it was about this monk that believed that you could form ice crystals from your thoughts in water. interesting. Yes, it’s fascinating. And I guess

I need to go look it up again because it was so interesting because that kind of ties in with all this because I do believe that our thoughts are much more powerful than we even realize. they are. Absolutely. I was having a coaching session with somebody yesterday and and we were talking about the fact that where she was before

the conversation started and where she was by the end of the conversation were two different places. And and I was telling her, I said, you’re very in tune with yourself. So you know that when you are when you’re resisting, when you’re fearful, all of those things, you’re not able to attract what you want because your thoughts aren’t in the right place. Yeah. And so she had, she realized that by the end of the call that

LISA KAHN
Yeah.

GAIL DOBY
She actually has people coming to her just because she thinks about them. You’ve had experience that I have for sure. I’ll think about somebody I might think about you and I I got a text from you. But it’s just it it if you are connected, if you are aware, if you have not shut yourself down because you’re in the negative headspace, then those the right things come to you more naturally.

LISA KAHN
Yeah, they do. You know, I it’s one of the things that I love about Sanctuary because it helps me quiet my mind. I think our minds are very noisy a lot of the times. I think the world is even more noisy. And being able to have a place where you can really like quiet it down, it actually allows you to hear. And I feel like we all have answers within ourselves, guidance within ourselves. And you know, whether you actually do believe it comes from within you or, you know, from an outside source, just to be quiet enough to be able to hear.

Guidance, direction, affirmation, all of those sorts of things. It really it’s so important.

GAIL DOBY
It is. It really is. I was just having a conversation with another past client who will be back. I know she will. just like you. You’ve come back how many times? I don’t know. But we were having this conversation and she was she’s been through a lot of health issues. Yeah. And her health issues have been so dramatic, not just hers, but her sisters, another employee on her team team. They all went through cancer. And so

Sure. But her attitude and her way of thinking about things is she’s very positive and and she’s just grateful. She’s just grateful. And that gratitude is serving her well. It really is.

LISA KAHN
Yeah. Yeah.

GAIL DOBY
So what are you the most proud of in your life?

LISA KAHN
Y it kind of is the theme of what we’re talking about right now. It is that I’ve been able to take things that have been some of the most difficult moments of my life and turn them into, you know, a viable business model and philosophy, a true sense of meaning and purpose in what I do and really a discovery of why I’m on the planet. You know, I feel like I know what I’m here to do. And I know not a lot of people know that.

Not a lot of people have gotten to the point that they feel like this is what I’m here to do. A lot of people are asking that question. So, you know, I think that’s it. Yeah.

GAIL DOBY
Mm. I like that. Well, and you have a long runway ahead. So what what about the next ten years? What will you have accomplished or contributed? Who are you gonna be?

LISA KAHN
You know, I love that you asked that. I really would like to

Be able to share the message and understanding of sanctuary on world stage. This is a message that is not just for my clients, this is not just for my family, it’s not even just for my community. I think it’s a real message of hope. I think it is solid strategies and coping mechanisms for living in the world today in a way that allows us to be sane and calm and happy and find meaning.

So, you know, to really do that is my overall goal. I really want to share, share, share with as many people as I can. So to that end, you know, we have some big things planned right now. And actually just this next week, we’re gonna make a big move. my husband and I purchased a five-acre property in Naples and we are going to really create

a space of sanctuary there on those acres that we can share with other people. We are going to live there certainly. My daughter Chloe will live there with us too. And there is a barn on this property that we are renovating into our design studio. And I know that we can also add to that workshop space, classroom space, perhaps a commercial kitchen for some future events. I think we can have retreats there. I think we can even have an outside amphitheater for Philip.

you know, my musician husband, for him to be able to share his music with the world. He loves it so lovingly writes the soundtrack to Sanctuary. I just could not possibly have found a more perfect partner. I will tell you that for sure. so you know, thinking of being able to have something where we can bring people in and really have them be in Sanctuary. It is much easier to understand it, to comprehend it, and to be able to learn it while you are there.

LISA KAHN
It is easier than just reading a book or taking a class online, although I’m intending that we will have both of those. So for people who can’t come in, you know, for those more live earning ret learning retreats. But I would like this to be a destination across the world. Like I would like people to be lining up to come and I think they will. I think this is a build it and they will come sort of a thing because I think the world is hungry for this. And I think that I have an understanding that is very unique.

even among designers. I think it’s very unique the way that I look at this and share this. So that’s really the big thing. You know, we do have a property in North Carolina, and I see that. I love the mountains. It is such a perfect contrast to, you know, the Gulf Coast of Florida for us. It really is such a different form of sanctuary and such a beautiful one. I do think that there will be opportunity there for us also to do, you know, more sharing than we do, although right now it is just.

destination for me to be able to fully unplug and rest. I rest there in ways that I don’t rest anywhere else on earth. so you know to continue to explore and learn about sanctuary, to be able to eventually get my doctorate, I would love that. so all of these things are goals for me. And I really would love to be able to meet some of the pivotal figures that are on the world stage that are bringing messages of peace, messages of you know deeper contemplation and understanding. I I would love that because I think

Kindred spirits are few and far between. And I think it was Seth Godin who wrote one of his very pithy blog posts. And it was simply this Find the others. I love that. I love that. Yes. I know, isn’t it great? Yes. Yes. Yes. I’m about it.

GAIL DOBY
Yes, yes. what is that? The Borg. I don’t know if you were ever a Star Trek person, but Yeah, it it’s kind of reminds me of that a little bit. So Well, it’s I think you’re gonna have an interesting journey ahead and it’s gonna be fun watching with all of this. Thank you.

LISA KAHN
Yes.

LISA KAHN
Yes.

LISA KAHN
Thank you, Gail. You really were there at the very start of it.

GAIL DOBY
Well, and and that’s yeah, that’s the fun part for me because I I get to see people’s journey and where they go and where their resistances are and watch them break through some of those and really discover what it is that is going to drive that that motivation forward.

LISA KAHN
Yeah.

GAIL DOBY
Because it is internal and it you cannot you cannot do anything if you push it without it being internalized, truly owned within you.

LISA KAHN
I know you were very wise when you said that I would need to live sanctuary if I was going to sell it. You were completely correct. And you really set me on a journey of transformation that I never could have imagined. You know, when you said that, I thought to myself, live sanctuary, that sounds amazing. I’m just gonna get massages all the time and relax and have coffee with my friends and go to the beach. Yeah. That’s not really what my life is and was, you know, to be able to truly embody sanctuary.

While we are going through tough times and good times.

GAIL DOBY
Yeah, ultimately we get through it all, right? We get through all of the things that come our way. It just feels sometimes as if it’s impossible. Mm-hmm. And the reality is we we can get over it. Mm-hmm.

LISA KAHN
I think it was Shakespeare that said it is our thinking that makes it so. So I think when we are convinced we’re suffering, we are suffering. And when we decide that we’re actually not suffering and we can get that bigger perspective, we’re not suffering anymore.

GAIL DOBY
Mm-hmm. True. Mm-hmm. Well you said you were reading a book, the D a Dictionary of Forgotten Words. Tell me about that book. Why is this so impactful?

LISA KAHN
So good. I think it’s because I love dictionaries and I love words. And this one was particularly about, you know, it was written in the early 1900s. This is about a young woman whose dad was a lexographer who is a person who writes dictionaries and studies words. And he was involved in the creation of the Oxford Dictionary. And she would kind of attend these sessions with him where they would bandy about words.

And it was her progress through because she wasn’t really allowed to participate. She was a young girl, but she started collecting words that she thought would be forgotten and keeping them on little slips of paper. And she ended up having them all published in a volume, and it was all of the words that she was afraid would be forgotten. And I just loved that. I mean, it was just such a beautiful book. Parts of it were scary and upsetting. they included some of the suffering of the

Women who were marching for women’s rights at that point and some of the things that they experienced, which actually I didn’t know. So I learned a lot about history, but I learned a lot about what goes into the making of a dictionary and how the meaning of words were determined. And what’s funny is that these slips of paper that people would submit to the people who were writing the dictionary of what they thought the word meant, there are still collections of these out there available from the Oxford Common Dictionary, the very first edition.

And you can buy them on eBay.

GAIL DOBY
Interesting. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Well that will probably be showing up in your work and your writing that’s coming up. Yes.

LISA KAHN
I know.

LISA KAHN
Well yes, you know it will. The other one that I’m reading right now that I am absolutely obsessed with is your brain on art. my gosh. This book is so incredible. The author of this is just really very well. She’s a neuroscientist and she just knows a lot about the brain and how it perceives things. So I do love both fiction and nonfiction. My nightstand is stacked with well, too many books. I shouldn’t be reading so many at once, but yet here I am.

GAIL DOBY
Likes.

GAIL DOBY
I do it too. I do it too. It’s pretty interesting. Mm-hmm. Most of mine are business books, but it but a lot of psychology books too, because I feel as if a lot of the work that has to happen is up here. Mm-hmm.

LISA KAHN
It really does. You know, it’s funny. Y you are such a source of great books. One of the best books I’ve ever read in my whole lifetime came from you.

GAIL DOBY
The one thing, right?

LISA KAHN
No.

GAIL DOBY
which one?

LISA KAHN
The obstacle is the way.

GAIL DOBY
the obstacle. yes. Yes, that is a favorite of mine. Yeah. Very good book. gosh. And I’ll have to give you some more because I’ve been reading Please do that lately. Yeah. When you have some time to read in your spare time.

LISA KAHN
I would love it. Give me a couple of weeks to move.

GAIL DOBY
I think I’ll give you a couple of months to get settled off that. I think it would make a big difference. well I think the other thing that’s interesting too, I see you enjoying your life so much more because you’re also, of course, you’ve got this wonderful, handsome husband of yours that is just delightful. And then you have a lot of good friends and you have been doing a lot of travel. I have.

you have and I think all of those things are leading to that fullness that allows you to be able to bubble up and enjoy and share, not from a place of scarcity, but from a place of abundance.

LISA KAHN
You’re so right. You know, I took a class last year through the Harvard Medical School. Once I finished my degree, I was really missing the learning. And I took a class about human happiness. Fascinating. I didn’t know that Harvard has the longest standing study on human happiness. It’s been going on for 85 years. Isn’t that incredible? Amazing. And so I know a psychiatrist who is currently running the study gave the class and

GAIL DOBY
Wow.

That’s

LISA KAHN
You know, the entire thing, they covered so many wonderful topics. They covered loneliness, they covered so many things that people experience, the lack of ability to find meaning. But all of their findings, what it all comes down to at the end of the day, human connection, connection with other people. And it doesn’t even have to be really deep connection. It can even be

The light everyday ones like the barista at your Starbucks or the person who cuts your ham at the deli, you know, it’s just the the people you get to know, you connect with them, even in light little ways. Human beings need connection. And what’s isn’t that interesting? And so I think it’s that balance then of like you need some contemplation time, you need some alone time so that you can kind of quiet, like we talked about before, but you need that so that then you can charge your battery back up.

to be able to go back out in the world or to invite people into your world so that then you can have that that time of connection.

GAIL DOBY
That makes me think about what as I as I age, I get to do more of what I want to do. So I don’t cook anymore. So that’s one of those things that yeah, I don’t. And we go out every other night for dinner and we go to some of the same restaurants. So we know the same servers and the people on their team. And we have these nice chats with them and they’re they’re so happy to see us and we’re happy to see them.

LISA KAHN
Uh-huh.

GAIL DOBY
And it really started from just the idea of help of making sure that people feel seen. Mm-hmm. And if you can help people feel seen, then they feel so much better about life and they are happier and they are able they serve you better. You serve them better. And I was thinking about it was it really started just because I thought as I become older.

I want to keep my mind sharp. So I want to work on really learning people’s names. And that’s a way for me to keep on keep sharp is that I make a point to learn people’s names. And so that kind of started the whole thing. And then next thing you know, we’re getting to the point where my husband, who’s an extreme introvert, is having fun enjoying getting to know people too. And when you walk out of the restaurant and you end up

LISA KAHN
Yeah.

GAIL DOBY
hugging the server because that server is somebody that you’ve been coming to for years now and they just they like you and you like them and it’s just yeah a nice little exchange. They’re never gonna be your best friends but they’re yeah they just need to be seen. And that that connection can be light like you said and it can be deep and all levels are important. And that

LISA KAHN
Exactly.

GAIL DOBY
need that people have to be seen is just so crucial.

LISA KAHN
It is, you know, it kind of reminds me what we were talking about just a little bit ago about those cards of gratitude. You know, each one of those was a way for the people who received them to be seen. And I think that’s why it was so effective.

GAIL DOBY
I love that and it also restarted your business because again you were showing people that you cared about them as people. You weren’t there to ask them for anything.

LISA KAHN
Exactly.

GAIL DOBY
I’ve actually shared that story many times about the the fifty cards because have you? I think it when people I have many times because people will say, Well, how do I get my business going? And how do I get more clients that and I said it’s right there in front of you because it’s all the people you already know are the links that you need to build a business that you want. There. You just need to keep in touch. So it’s a relationship building. It’s true. Yeah.

LISA KAHN
yes.

GAIL DOBY
Well, we always have these interesting conversations and I’d love to hear your three takeaways for today. They’re always fun.

LISA KAHN
My takeaways for today are that

It is our darkest days that bring our deepest learning.

Also that

LISA KAHN
Knowing someone over a long period of time like I have known you is the kind of connection that fuels a happy life. And

Also, that we can really trust our knowing. You know, you talked about it a little bit ago about kind of knowing that it’s time, knowing who’s calling, knowing, thinking of someone, and kind of drawing them in, you know, at that time. That energy current kind of goes out. But I think we can really trust that. I think we can, it’s not something you can measure. It’s not something that you can scientifically prove, but yet.

It is there and it is very real and it is very impactful when you do trust it. And I think that it is something that can really guide us at times when we are unsure. And I love that.

GAIL DOBY
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that too. It’s great. Well, as always, it’s a it’s interesting and I’m sure we’ll have more conversations, but to me these are the fun ones because we can get into the into the heart. It’s not just

LISA KAHN
Yeah. For sure. I appreciate you, Gail.

GAIL DOBY
Love you too. Mm-hmm.