#216 What Are Economists Thinking? with Phil Armstrong (part 1)

Part 1: Christian talks to Dr Phil Armstrong about his many interactions with key economic thinkers, compiled in his book "Can Heterodox Economics Make A Difference?"

Full conversation here: https://www.patreon.com/MMTpodcast/posts/patron-only-what-163877515?pr=true

Please help sustain this podcast! 

Patrons get early access to all episodes and patron-only episodes: https://www.patreon.com/MMTpodcast

Relevant to this episode:

• "Can Heterodox Economics Make A Difference?" by Phil Armstrong: https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/gbp/can-heterodox-economics-make-a-difference-9781800370883.html
• "Tax-Driven Money: Additional Evidence from the History of Thought, Economic History, and Economic Policy" by Mathew Forstater: https://tools.bard.edu/wwwmedia/resources/files/1238/WP%2035%20-%20Tax-Driven%20Money%20-%20Forstater.pdf 
• "A Modern Monetary Theorist's Response to 'Weaknesses of MMT as a guide to development policy', Aboobaker and Ugurlu (2023)" by Phil Armstrong: https://gimms.org.uk/2025/09/17/a-mmt-response-to-aboobaker-and-ugurlu-2023/
• "A modern monetary theory advocate's response to 'modern monetary theory on money, sovereignty, and policy: A marxist critique with reference to the Eurozone and Greece' by Costas Lapavitsas and Nicolás Aguila (2020)" by Phil Armstrong: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2329194X.2022.2051720
• Our episode 132 - "Phil Armstrong: Greece, The Euro & Getting The Money Story Right" on the above paper: https://www.patreon.com/MMTpodcast/posts/episode-132-phil-66829431
• Episode 30 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 1) :https://www.patreon.com/posts/29621245
• Episode 31 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 2):  https://www.patreon.com/posts/29829500
• "Federal Debt and Modern Money" by Steven Hail & David Joy: https://www.global-isp.org/wp-content/uploads/PN-121.pdf
• "There is no need to issue public debt" by Bill Mitchell: https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=31715
• "How to Fight Back Against the False Idea that the Government is at the Mercy of Financial Markets" by Sheridan Kates: https://thealternative.org.uk/dailyalternative/2025/3/10/scotonomics-monetary-autonomy
• For more on the (Liz) Trussageddon, listen to Episode 147 - Dirk Ehnts: Do Markets Control Our Politics?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-147-dirk-72906421
• Join the MMT UK discord server to connect with others looking to promote MMT and ecological economics in the UK!: https://discord.gg/S3UbxFe4FR

All our episodes in chronological order: https://www.patreon.com/posts/43111643

All our patron-only episodes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/57542767 

JOIN PATRICIA'S MMT ACTIVIST NETWORK (MMT UK): https://actionnetwork.org/forms/activist-registration-form

Join the MMT UK Discord server to connect with others looking to promote MMT and ecological economics in the UK!: https://discord.gg/S3UbxFe4FR

MMT: THE MOVIE!

• "Finding The Money", a documentary by Maren Poitras featuring Stephanie Kelton is now available worldwide to rent or buy: https://findingthemoney.vhx.tv/products/finding-the-money
• Updates on worldwide screenings of "Finding The Money" can be found here: https://findingmoneyfilm.com/where-to-watch/
• To arrange a screening of "Finding The Money", apply here: https://findingmoneyfilm.com/host-a-screening/

STUDY THE ECONOMICS OF SUSTAINABILITY!

• Details of Modern Money Lab's online graduate, postgraduate and standalone courses in economics are here: https://modernmoneylab.org.au/

For an intro to MMT:

• Our first three episodes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742417
• Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318

Quick MMT reads:

• Warren's Mosler's MMT white paper: http://moslereconomics.com/mmt-white-paper/
• Steven Hail's quick MMT explainer: https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-modern-monetary-theory-72095
• Quick explanation of government debt and deficit: "Some Numbers Are Big. Let Me Help You Get Over It": https://christreilly.com/2020/02/17/some-numbers-are-big-let-me-help-you-get-over-it/

For a short, non-technical, free ebook explaining MMT, download Warren Mosler's "7 Deadly Innocent Frauds Of Economic Policy" here: http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf

Episodes on monetary operations: 

• Episode 20 - Warren Mosler: The MMT Money Story (part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/28004824
• Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318
• Episode 13 - Steven Hail: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Banking, But Were Afraid To Ask: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41790887
• Episode 43 - Sam Levey: Understanding Endogenous Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/35073683 
• Episode 84 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46352183
• Episode 86 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46865929 

For more on Quantitative Easing:

• Episode 59 - Warren Mosler: What Do Central Banks Do?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/39070023
• Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71589989?pr=true 

Episodes on inflation:

• Episode 7: Steven Hail: Inflation, Price Shocks and Other Misunderstandings: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41780508
• Episode 65 - Phil Armstrong: Understanding Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/40672678
• Episode 104 - John T Harvey: Inflation, Stagflation & Healing The Nation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/52207835
• Episode 123 - Warren Mosler: Understanding The Price Level And Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/59856379
• Episode 128 - L. Randall Wray & Yeva Nersisyan: What's Causing Accelerating Inflation? Pandemic Or Policy Response?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/63776558

Our Job Guarantee episodes: 

• Episode 4 - Fadhel Kaboub: What is the Job Guarantee?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742701
• Episode 47 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Building Resilience - The Case For A Job Guarantee: https://www.patreon.com/posts/36034543
• Episode 148 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Why The Job Guarantee Is Core To Modern Monetary Theory: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-148-why-73211346
• Quick read: Pavlina Tcherneva's Job Guarantee FAQ page: https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/job-guarantee-faq/

More on government bonds (and "vigilantes"):

• Episode 30 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 1):https://www.patreon.com/posts/29621245
• Episode 31 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/29829500
• Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71589989?pr=true
• Episode 147 - Dirk Ehnts: Do Markets Control Our Politics?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-147-dirk-72906421
• Episode 144 - Warren Mosler: The Natural Rate Of Interest Is Zero: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71966513
• Episode 145 - John T Harvey: What Determines Currency Prices?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/72283811?pr=true

More on bank runs banking regulation: 

• Episode 162 - Warren Mosler: Anatomy Of A Bank Run: https://www.patreon.com/posts/80157783?pr=true
• Episode 163 - L. Randall Wray: Breaking Banks - The Fed's Magical Monetarist Thinking Strikes Again: https://www.patreon.com/posts/80479169?pr=true
• Episode 165 - Robert Hockett: Sparking An Industrial Renewal By Building Banks Better: https://www.patreon.com/posts/81084983?pr=true
• MMT founder Warren Mosler's Proposals for the Treasury, the Federal Reserve, the FDIC, and the Banking System: https://neweconomicperspectives.org/2010/02/warren-moslers-proposals-for-treasury.html

MMT Events And Courses:

• More information about Professor Bill Mitchell's MMTed project (free public online courses in MMT) here: http://www.mmted.org/
• Details of Modern Money Lab's online graduate and postgraduate courses in MMT and real-world economics are here: https://modernmoneylab.org.au/

Order the Gower Initiative's "Modern Monetary Theory - Key Insights, Leading Thinkers": https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/gbp/modern-monetary-theory-9781802208085.html

MMT Academic Resources compiled by The Gower Initiative for Modern Money Studies: https://www.zotero.org/groups/2251544/mmt_academic_resources_-_compiled_by_the_gower_initiative_for_modern_money_studies

MMT scholarship compiled by New Economic Perspectives: http://neweconomicperspectives.org/mmt-scholarship

A list of MMT-informed campaigns and organisations worldwide: https://www.patreon.com/posts/47900757

We are working towards full transcripts, but in the meantime, closed captions for all episodes are available on our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEp_nGVTuMfBun2wiG-c0Ew/videos

Show notes: https://www.patreon.com/MMTpodcast/posts/episode-216-what-164455931?pr=true