Clay welcomes Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Joe Ellis to the program to discuss America at 250. Ellis is the author of more than a dozen books about the Early National Period. He has been in several Ken Burns documentaries and a wide range of other media projects. Ellis believes the American republic is in grave danger and could still collapse. Still, he hopes that the American people are waking up to the threat to their now-fragile constitutional order. Clay and Joe examine the debate between Thomas Jefferson, who believed in the goodness of humankind and our ability to govern ourselves rationally, and John Adams' view that human nature crossed the Atlantic Ocean with the colonists of the 17th century, and that human passions and selfishness must be factored into any political system that can survive in the long run. This episode was recorded on June 19, 2026.
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