Andrew Freedman, Co-Founder and CEO of Fathom, returns a year after his last conversation with Gregory C. Allen to explain how independent verification organizations (IVOs) went from Fathom's niche AI policy idea to governing law in two states. They start with Fathom’s published polling on U.S. public opinion on AI and how things have changed since the OpenAI Hugging Face incident. They cover:

  • California’s SB 813
  • Governor Newsom’s executive order, which pulls the IVO deadline forward to May 2027 and ties IVOs to SB 53
  • Connecticut’s five-IVO pilot
  • Why the bipartisan FRONTIER Act has a surprisingly high chance of being Congress' big AI bill next year.

 Chapters

  1. Andrew Freedman returns: what Fathom is and why it isn’t a PAC (00:00 - 02:43)
  2. The April 2026 poll: vetting, China, and who Americans trust (02:43 - 11:06)
  3. Focus groups, named CEOs, and the “Armageddon” expert (11:06 - 15:21)
  4. What an IVO is: Underwriters Laboratories and the Age of Edison (15:21 - 22:43)
  5. How IVOs work, and why voluntary is turning mandatory (22:43 - 26:27)
  6. IVOs alongside CAISI and the UK AISI; duty of care and tort law (26:27 - 31:44)
  7. Who gets to be an IVO, and who audits the auditors (31:44 - 38:29)
  8. SB 813, Newsom’s executive order, SB 53, and Connecticut’s pilot (38:29 - 47:31)
  9. Would IVOs have stopped the Hugging Face incident? (47:31 - 52:30)
  10. Bessent, Sacks, and the liability fight (52:30 - 56:59)
  11. The FRONTIER Act’s odds and the 60th Senate vote (56:59 - 1:01:28)

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