Jeremy Singer sits down with Rebecca Winthrop, senior fellow and director of the Center for Universal Education at the Brookings Institution and co-author, with Jenny Anderson, of The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better.
In a Brookings survey of more than 65,000 U.S. students, 75% of third graders say they love school. By 10th grade, it's 25%. Winthrop explains why disengagement is still hard to spot, starting with how she misread her own two sons during COVID.
The book's core finding: engagement isn't a yes-or-no question. Students move among four modes (Passenger, Achiever, Resister, and Explorer), and these are states, not traits. More than half of middle and high schoolers spend most of their time in Passenger mode. Fewer than 4% regularly experience Explorer mode.
Key Highlights:
• Achievers aren't the goal. They follow instructions well but avoid risk, focus on grades over learning, and cheat at high rates.
• Autonomy moves disengaged students fastest. More scaffolded freedom, not less, moved struggling students into Explorer mode more quickly. At Iowa BIG in Cedar Rapids, one disruptive student became a standout within two months.
• Focus on interests, not passion. "Find your passion" adds pressure. Adults can help kids notice what sparks their curiosity.
• AI introduces a new divide. AI accelerates students who are already exploring and makes it easier for everyone else to coast.
• For parents: Ask what your child learned, not how they scored. Ask Passengers for a plan instead of nagging. Tell Achievers their worth doesn't depend on grades.
• For teachers: Johnmarshall Reeve's autonomy-supportive practices need no curriculum changes and have been tested in more than 35 randomized controlled trials across 20 countries. Expect about two weeks before students respond.
• For system leaders: Don't use GPA cutoffs to bar struggling students from extracurriculars. Stop assigning work AI can complete, and pair knowledge with applied learning.
• On Advanced Placement: Winthrop asks what it would take to make every AP course project-based.
Referenced in the Episode:
• The Disengaged Teen by Rebecca Winthrop and Jenny Anderson
• Brookings and Transcend research on student engagement
• Johnmarshall Reeve's research on autonomy-supportive teaching
• Iowa BIG
• Democracy and Education by John Dewey
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Timestamps:
00:00 Show Intro
00:34 Meet Rebecca Winthrop
01:41 The Engagement Cliff
02:26 Why Write The Book
04:22 Four Engagement Modes
05:02 Achievers And Passengers
07:16 Resisters Vs Explorers
09:00 Moving Toward Explorer
11:33 Family And Classroom Levers
13:58 Counterintuitive Autonomy
16:45 Stop Saying Find Passion
18:16 Making Learning Relevant
19:55 AI And Engagement Modes
20:44 AI Equity Divide
22:21 Parents Key Takeaways
23:54 Breaking Passenger Cycles
26:01 Teacher Agency Nudges
28:43 Policy Moves at Scale
31:19 Rethinking AP for Agency
34:04 Project Based AP Vision
35:25 Rapid Fire and Wrap
