How do you design an organisation with less fear? In this episode I’m joined by Mack Fogelson, an organisational designer who helps leaders and companies build braver cultures in complex systems. Organisations are rarely designed with fear in mind, but for Mack, it shows up in every layer of how work actually gets done.
Mack pioneers practical, human-centered approaches to change, helping organizations move from burnout and reactivity toward clarity, shared power, experimentation, and resilient ways of working. Her work weaves together systems thinking, organizational design, and Brené Brown’s research on courage, belonging, and vulnerability.
Together we look at how fear shows up in an organisation - from strategy and process, to culture and leadership behaviours - and what it takes to build organisations that work with uncertainty, rather than against it.
We explore:
- The difference between our "ways of being" and "ways of doing" at work
- Why so much of what looks like leadership failure is actually a systems failure in disguise
- What's really driving the urge in leaders to overplan, overcommit and stay relentlessly busy
- Why a leader's emotional Wi-Fi might travel further than any strategy document
- What happens when you start treating uncertainty as a teacher, rather than a problem to solve
If your organisation feels stuck in the same patterns no matter how many plans or processes you put in place - this conversation is for you.
About Guest
Mack Fogelson is an organizational designer, executive advisor, and cultural transformation strategist who helps leaders and companies build braver cultures in complex systems.
She partners with entrepreneurs, executives, and teams around the world - from high-growth companies to organizations like Apple - to redesign how work actually gets done and create systems that support both performance and humanity.
Mack is a Certified Dare to Lead™ Facilitator in Brené Brown’s community. Featured in The Economist. Mack writes about uncertainty, power, and how we work together in a fractured world
Find out more at mackfogelson.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mackenziefogelson/
Substack: https://mackfogelson.substack.com/
The podcast was produced by pronkproductions.com
