Hypermedia at Scale with Carson Gross (HTMX) | REST, HTMX 4, AI

Do you actually need a JavaScript framework to build your web app, or did we forget how the web was designed to work?Carson Gross is the creator of HTMX and its predecessor, intercooler.js, the principal at Big Sky Software, and a computer science professor at Montana State University. HTMX came out around the same time as React, and for years it was the contrarian option. Then the industry started asking how much JavaScript we really need.In this episode, Carson walks through his crooked path into programming (HyperCard, Excel, a JVM language called Gosu), how frustration with Angular 1 led to intercooler.js, and how a COVID rewrite without jQuery became HTMX. We dig into what hypermedia actually is, why JSON APIs are not REST in Fielding's original sense, and which apps HTMX is (and isn't) a good fit for.We also get into HTMX 4, why AI and vibe coding may push HTMX into a niche, and why Carson went back to pencil and paper exams so his students still learn how computers work.Key Topics:- From HyperCard and Excel to building a JVM programming language- How Angular 1 and jQuery inspired intercooler.js- Rewriting intercooler without jQuery to create HTMX- Hypermedia explained through links and forms- Why government and public websites should use plain HTML- How REST came to mean the opposite of REST- What kinds of apps HTMX is good for- HTMX 4: fetch instead of XHR, explicit attribute inheritance, renamed events- AI, vibe coding, and the future of HTMX- Teaching CS in the AI era with pencil and paper exams- Advice for junior developers- Chesterton's Fence and book recommendationsCONNECT WITH CARSON💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/1cg🐦 X (HTMX): https://x.com/htmx_org🐙 GitHub: https://github.com/bigskysoftware🌐 Website: https://bigsky.softwareFOLLOW & SUBSCRIBE🎙️ Podcast: https://neciudan.dev/senors-at-scale📩 Newsletter: https://neciudan.dev/subscribe💼 Dan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neciudan💼 Señors at Scale on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/senors-scale/📸 Señors at Scale on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/senorsatscale/📸 Dan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/neciudevADDITIONAL RESOURCES📘 Hypermedia Systems (free book): https://hypermedia.systems🌐 HTMX: https://htmx.org🧪 HTMX examples: https://htmx.org/examples📝 HTMX essays (incl. How Did REST Come to Mean the Opposite of REST, Yes And): https://htmx.org/essays🪓 Grug Brain Developer: https://grugbrain.dev💻 MTMC 16-bit teaching computer: https://mtmc.cs.montana.edu💻 BDP 8-bit teaching computer: https://bdp.cs.montana.edu🏛️ G.K. Chesterton: https://chesterton.org📚 A Philosophy of Software Design by John Ousterhout📚 The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov📚 The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky#htmx #hypermedia #webdevelopment #javascript #softwareengineering #react #rest #ai💬 Have you shipped anything with HTMX, or are you still all in on SPAs? Tell me in the comments.