In this episode of Saving the World from Bad Ideas, Mark Lynas speaks with science writer Rowan Hooper about one of the deepest misconceptions in biology: that life is only about competition. Drawing on Hooper’s new book Togetherness, they explore how symbiosis and cooperation run through life at every scale, from lichens and corals to ants, orchids, the human microbiome, and even the origin of complex cells. The conversation also revisits Darwin, Malthus, ecology, overconsumption, and the ways modern society has been shaped by an overly narrow reading of evolution. It is a wide-ranging discussion about why life’s greatest successes often come not from ruthless struggle alone, but from collaboration, interdependence, and living together.
🧠 Topics Discussed
🧬 Why cooperation and symbiosis have been neglected in biology for so long
🍄 How lichens show that radically different life forms can combine into one successful organism
🪸 Why coral reefs depend on symbiosis between animals and algae
🔋 How mitochondria and chloroplasts reveal that complex cells were built through endosymbiosis
🦠 Why humans are ecosystems, not just individuals, thanks to the microbiome
🧠 How symbiotic microbes influence digestion, mood, sleep, and immunity
📚 Whether modern understandings of symbiosis challenge Darwin, or deepen him
⚔️ How Darwin strategically emphasized competition to make his theory acceptable
📈 Why Malthusian thinking shaped both Darwinism and modern ideas of scarcity
🌾 How artificial fertilizer helped humanity escape Malthus, while creating new ecological damage
🐜 How leaf-cutter ants became extraordinary farmers through fungal symbiosis
🌸 Why orchids cannot even germinate without fungal partners
🌍 How ecological stress and climate change are breaking down vital symbiotic relationships
🧪 Why technologies such as genetic engineering may help restore ecological function
🌱 What it means to live more ecologically on a crowded planet
👩🏫 Guest Bio
Dr Rowan Hooper is a science writer and author whose work explores biology, evolution, ecology, and what science can tell us about the human place in nature. In this episode he discusses his new book, Togetherness: Symbiosis and the Hidden Story of Life’s Greatest Collaborations. The book is published on June 4 in the UK, and on August 14 in the US and Canada.
📚 Recommended Reading & Resources
Togetherness: Symbiosis and the Hidden Story of Life’s Greatest Collaborations by Rowan Hooper
Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species
Work on Lynn Margulis and endosymbiosis
Research on the human microbiome
Writing on ecology, soil health, plant-fungal symbiosis, and coral bleaching
💬 Quote Highlights
💬 “The emphasis ever since Darwin has been on competition. And while that is correct in many ways, it’s led to a terrible neglect of cooperation and symbiosis.”
Rowan Hooper
💬 “That’s done real damage to the way we live in the world.”
Rowan Hooper
💬 “I am an ecosystem, mobile ecosystem.”
Rowan Hooper
💬 “Darwin was actually... a very cunning plan basically. He did it deliberately in order for his book to be accepted.”
Rowan Hooper
💬 “Orchids are super successful and the whole root of their success is through symbiosis.”
Rowan Hooper
💬 “From the origin of life to now and then into the future. We need it.”
Rowan Hooper
🌐 About WePlanet
WePlanet is an international movement campaigning for science-based solutions to the climate, nature and development crises. Through conversations like this one, we challenge bad ideas, spotlight better ones, and make the case for a more abundant, resilient and hopeful future.
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