Zheng Yi Sao, with guest Dr. Leon Rocha (Zheng Yi Sao & Questions For Her)

In this episode Dr. Emma Nagouse (You're Dead To Me) and Dan Smith (Bastille) talk about the world's greatest-ever pirate: Zheng Yi Sao, who rose from working in a 'floating brothel' to controlling the South China Sea and China's salt trade, and the inspiration for Dan's song Zheng Yi Sao & Questions For Her which you cannot hear yet - it's not out until the album "&" is released on Friday - but there are clips all the way through this episode, so this is your first chance to hear this song.

They are joined by Doctor Leon Rocha, a former Senior Lecturer in Chinese History and Society at the University of Lincoln and a former Lecturer in Chinese Studies (History) at the University of Liverpool who offers an expert's view on how she did it, the world she was dealing with, and how she was able to walk away at the time of her choosing. We also discuss if Dan would rather be a cultist, a pirate or a bandit, and how much admin is involved in running a massive criminal empire.

You can find out more about all the people we're talking about in this series at ampersand.bastillebastille.com.

Say hello at muses@leadmojo.co.uk.

Muses: An Ampersand Podcast is presented by Dan Smith and Dr. Emma Nagouse. It is produced by Dr. Emma Nagouse and Ed Morrish for Lead Mojo productions.

Cover photography by Bo Morgan, taken at the Walker Art Gallery, in Liverpool.

Cover design by Chris Barker.

Episode artwork by Harriet Bruce.

Recorded by Calvin Thornbarrow at Liverpool Podcast Studios.

Mixed by Miles Wheway.

Thanks to Dr. Melissa Gustin for arranging the location for the cover art, and to Moira Mack and Charlie Barnes for their help with the jingle.

Sources

• Antony, Robert J., ed. Elusive Pirates, Pervasive Smugglers. Hong Kong: Hong Kong University Press, 2010.
• Antony, Robert J. Unruly People. Hong Kong: Hong Kong University Press, 2016.
• Murray, Dian H. Pirates of the South China Coast, 1790-1810. Stanford, Calif: Stanford University Press, 1987.
• Wang, Wensheng. White Lotus Rebels and South China Pirates. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard Univ. Press, 2014.

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