John Elkington has spent more than 50 years thinking about sustainability, business and how systems change. He coined the term Triple Bottom Line, has written more than 20 books and advises businesses and leaders around the world.
But this conversation is much more about what comes next than what came before. John believes the next 10–15 years could bring more change than the previous 50.
We talk about why the sustainability movement has become tired and overcomplicated, why the pushback against ESG may actually be useful, and why he believes we’re moving from an era of “soft sustainability” into something much harder.
We get into Donald Trump and the breakdown of the old order, AI and the dangers of technological races, why individual action still matters but can’t deliver system change alone, who gets to shape the story of our future, and the kind of leadership we may need for what comes next.
Most importantly, John explains why he’s optimistic, even while expecting the years ahead to be extremely challenging.
In this episode
00:01 — Curiosity as a way of life
At 77, John says he feels like he’s only getting started. What keeps him curious, and why nature still gives him disproportionate joy.
00:12 — Has sustainability run out of steam?
John thinks the movement has become tired, complacent and too complicated. And surprisingly, he sees the backlash against it as an opportunity.
00:17 — Why real system change rarely happens gradually
We talk about the shocks that have transformed societies throughout history, and why John expects far greater change over the next 10–15 years than we’ve seen in the previous 50.
00:25 — The end of soft sustainability
Being responsible, reporting progress and making voluntary commitments won’t be enough. John explains what he means by the shift from “soft” to “hard” sustainability.
00:34 — AI, technological races and running through the red lights
What happens when everyone believes they have to win? We explore AI, the race for technological dominance and what history tells us about technologies developing faster than our ability to understand their consequences.
00:39 — Have we given people responsibility without power?
From The Green Consumer Guide to today’s calls for system change: did asking millions of individuals to make better choices actually work?
00:43 — Why we’re addicted to magical solutions
There is rarely one technology, policy or idea that suddenly fixes everything. John explains why meaningful change is much messier, slower and more experimental.
00:48 — Who gets to shape the future?
How do we give nature, future generations and marginalised communities a genuine voice without simply telling their stories for them?
00:52 — Where are the leaders we need?
Why strong leadership and good values so rarely appear together, what John sees in leaders such as Mark Carney, and why our political systems may need much deeper reinvention.
00:58 — The future isn’t waiting for us
Climate impacts we once imagined our grandchildren dealing with are already arriving. John explains why time literacy matters and why leadership ultimately depends on telling people the truth while still giving them a believable way forward.
