Dr. Jonathan Howard (neurologist and author) and science journalist Wendy Orent return for another sharp, unsparing look at the state of U.S. public health policy. In this episode, the hosts unpack the surprise withdrawal of Casey Means as surgeon general nominee, her replacement by Fox News commentator and MSKCC breast imaging chief Dr. Nicole Saphier, and what the shuffle signals about the fracturing of the MAHA coalition.

They dig into Saphier's contradictory record — pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021 set against more recent anti-vaccine messaging, her supplement business (DropRx), and her now-deleted social media posts criticizing Trump and Elon Musk. From there, the conversation turns to the FDA's blocked publication of research showing the COVID and shingles vaccines are safe, the apparent role of former FDA vaccine office chief Dr. Vinay Prasad, and reporting that FDA Commissioner Marty Makary's job is in jeopardy.

The episode also covers a small piece of good news — NIH program director Jenna Norton being reinstated after Jay Bhattacharya placed her on administrative leave for organizing the Bethesda Declaration — alongside disturbing developments: RFK Jr. clearing the path for minors to use tanning beds, and the militarized arrest of 78-year-old retired NIH scientist Dr. David Morens. Howard and Orent close on what the Morens arrest reveals about where lab leak conspiracy thinking has led American science and the rule of law.

Hosts

Dr. Jonathan Howard: Neurologist, professor, and author who writes prolifically on COVID misinformation and public health policy.

Wendy Orent: Science journalist and author specializing in infectious disease, evolutionary biology, and public health.

Episode Timestamps

  • [00:00] Welcome and Atlanta weather check-in

  • [00:35] Casey Means out, Nicole Saphier in as surgeon general nominee — what it signals about MAHA

  • [01:30] Saphier's role at Memorial Sloan Kettering and her integrative medicine push

  • [02:50] The 2021 WSJ op-ed with Marty Makary: a 10-fold error on pediatric COVID hospitalizations that was never corrected

  • [06:30] Saphier's video opposing COVID vaccines for healthy children — and the framing of myocarditis as a fate worse than death

  • [09:20] Saphier's earlier pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021, and why MAHA now resents her

  • [11:15] DropRx supplements: the surgeon general nominee's tincture business

  • [12:30] Brandy Zadrozny's reporting on Saphier's book and her past criticism of the Plandemic film

  • [13:10] Wendy watches Plandemic so you don't have to: Judy Mikovits and the anti-vaccine machine

  • [14:50] CNN reports Saphier purged posts critical of Trump and Musk before her nomination

  • [15:50] The most disturbing Saphier clip: 'DOGE is one of the greatest things to happen in U.S. history' while telling cancer researchers to 'just pause'

  • [16:50] Harvard's November 2025 finding: hundreds of thousands of deaths from the USAID shutdown

  • [18:20] Good news: Jenna Norton reinstated at NIH after Jay Bhattacharya tried to fire her over the Bethesda Declaration

  • [19:30] Greg Gonsalves on scientists who cooperate with authoritarian science policy

  • [20:10] FDA blocked publication of research showing the COVID and shingles vaccines are safe

  • [21:30] Vinay Prasad: the censorship critic who became a censor

  • [22:30] Why are these people opposed to the shingles vaccine? Howard and Orent on herpes zoster, strokes, and ophthalmic complications

  • [23:50] New evidence: recombinant zoster vaccine linked to reduced dementia risk in adults 65+

  • [26:10] Marty Makary's FDA in chaos — WSJ, Bloomberg, and Politico reporting on a possible shakeup

  • [28:00] Trump pressures the FDA to approve flavored vapes; ENDS authorization issued the same day

  • [31:00] Makary's interview defending the Replimmune metastatic melanoma rejection — and getting caught in the contradiction

  • [33:30] Who's really driving the FDA shakeup? Biotech investors, not patients

  • [35:30] RFK Jr. clears path for minors to use tanning beds, and what dermatologists are saying

  • [36:30] The arrest of Dr. David Morens: a 78-year-old retired NIH scientist, federal agents, tactical gear, and a strip-search

  • [38:30] Lysenkoism revisited — what the lab leak conspiracy was always going to lead to

  • [40:30] Closing thoughts and sign-off

Key Discussion Points The Nicole Saphier Nomination

  • Casey Means was withdrawn as surgeon general nominee and replaced by Dr. Nicole Saphier, head of breast imaging at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center and a frequent Fox News medical commentator.

  • Howard revisits Saphier's December 2021 Wall Street Journal op-ed with Marty Makary, which understated pediatric COVID-19 hospitalizations by roughly a factor of 10 because the authors did not realize covid.net data only covered about 10 percent of the U.S. population. The error has never been corrected.

  • Saphier's pre-nomination digital footprint included pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021 alongside more recent anti-vaccine content, criticism of Trump and Elon Musk that has since been purged, and a personal supplement line called DropRx.

FDA Censorship of Vaccine Safety Research

  • The FDA blocked publication of internal research finding that the COVID-19 and shingles vaccines are safe, with reporting suggesting Dr. Vinay Prasad's office was involved in the decision before he left the agency.

  • Howard points out the irony: Prasad built much of his public profile complaining about scientific censorship, then engaged in censorship the moment he held FDA power.

  • New peer-reviewed research continues to show the recombinant zoster (shingles) vaccine is associated with reduced dementia risk in adults aged 65 and older, even as senior officials downplay or block such findings.

Marty Makary on Thin Ice

  • Multiple outlets — the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, NOTUS, and a Rachel Bade scoop — report Makary is at risk of being removed as FDA Commissioner over conflicts with the White House and his handling of rare-disease drug approvals.

  • The same day Trump publicly pressured the FDA on flavored vapes, the agency issued a press release authorizing new ENDS (electronic nicotine delivery systems) products.

  • In a 15-minute interview, Makary defended the rejection of Replimmune's metastatic melanoma drug by attributing it to career FDA scientists, but the journalist surfaced earlier indications that the initial review team had recommended approval.

A Rare Piece of Good News

  • NIH program director Jenna Norton, a key organizer of the Bethesda Declaration, was reinstated after Dr. Jay Bhattacharya placed her on administrative leave. A judge also reinstated several FEMA employees in the same ruling.

The Arrest of Dr. David Morens

  • Federal agents in tactical gear and bulletproof vests arrested Dr. David Morens, a 78-year-old retired NIH influenza researcher and former aide to Dr. Anthony Fauci, at his home over allegations he used a private email account to discuss official business and avoid FOIA disclosure.

  • According to reporting in Science, Morens was strip-searched, handcuffed, and driven roughly 65 kilometers for fingerprinting and booking.

  • Howard and Orent frame the arrest as the predictable endpoint of years of lab leak conspiracy rhetoric, and as a clear case of selective political prosecution.

Mentioned in This Episode

  • Wall Street Journal op-ed: 'Should You Vaccinate Your Five-Year-Old?' by Nicole Saphier and Marty Makary, December 3, 2021

  • Plandemic (2020 anti-vaccine film featuring Judy Mikovits)

  • Make America Healthy Again (book by Nicole Saphier)

  • Harvard study, November 2025, on deaths attributable to the USAID shutdown

  • Greg Gonsalves essay on Vichy scientists

  • Bethesda Declaration

  • Alyssa Finley, Wall Street Journal: 'President Trump's Marty Makary Problem'

  • Bloomberg: 'Paranoia, Turmoil and Backlash Inside Marty Makary's FDA'

  • Rachel Bade: 'Scoop: Makary's Job in Jeopardy as White House Considers FDA Shakeup'

  • Liz Esely White, Wall Street Journal: 'Trump Pressures FDA Commissioner to Approve Flavored Vapes'

  • Los Angeles Times: 'RFK Jr. clears path for minors' use of tanning beds, much to the dismay of dermatologists'

  • Science: 'Guns and bulletproof vests: How federal agents arrested a Fauci aide'

  • Brandy Zadrozny — reporting on Nicole Saphier

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