Best mates Ollie and Lukas sit down with renowned Israeli Historian of the 'New School', Ilan Pappé. In this episode, we pull out the nuances in discussions about the two-state solution, the use of language, the genocide, colonisation, and the future.
We begin with an in-depth discussion about how discourse shapes the way we view an issue: should the situation be described as a conflict, a genocide, a war, or something else? The discussion turns around how we can balance the priorities of international policy-makers and NGOs which are actively seeking practical solutions, with the principled approach to language which says we should describe things as we believe them to be.
Ilan Pappé, a resident of Israel living in Haifa, explains what it's like on the ground: the problematic attitudes of many everyday Israelis, and how he deals with conflict arising from his pro-Palestinian principles. He even goes so far as to draw parallels with the Nazi regime's discourse surrounding the Jews: the totalising and dehumanising rhetoric that allows one to carry out acts of brutality. This is also top-down, indeed Pappé opens up about how Israeli schools utilitse Middle Eastern history as a way to give their nation a certain view of the world and their place in it. Fear is manipulated in order to keep conflict with Iran, Lebanon, Palestine, and so on, evergoing.Without context, we cannot know where or who we are. Ilan Pappé recognises the tragedy of October 7th, and meanwhile argues that we cannot understand it without the context which brought it into being. He talks about the 'colonisation of Palestine' as being a process of settler colonialism which displaced Palestinians and used violence to erase them from 'the land with no people'.
Ollie and Lukas get into it with Ilan about the future. Ollie expresses his internal debate about the two- and one-state solution. One is perhaps more 'pragmatic', and the other more 'ideal'. Ilan tells us that it is not us who should decide, but the Palestinians.
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The book Ollie got Lukas for his birthday: https://amzn.to/3T5BlhOOn Palestine: https://amzn.to/4wjqjUP10
Myths about Israel: https://amzn.to/4wjqjUP
00:00 - The significance of language for Israel-Palestine
08:32 - Language and attitudes within Israel
12:31 - Nazism, Fear, and Conversation in Israel
19:17 - The Cycle of Violence: Its Roots and Future
25:42 - October 7th and Historical Context
34:23 - The Two-State Solution, Aparthed, and the Future
45:23 - Normalcy after the Genocide for Palestinians
54:42 - Imagining a Shared Future in Palestine
