130. Food Forest Design, AI Systems and Off-Grid Communities

In episode 130 of The Permaculture Vine Podcast, host Cormac Harkin was joined by Travis Holzem, returning to the podcast after previously appearing in episode 88.

The conversation covered Travis’s work with Food Forest Design Minnesota, the development of the Food Forest Design Network, his use of AI and automation within a food forest design business, and plans for Sovereign Acres, a proposed off-grid community in Minnesota.

Who’s at the Table

Travis Holzem is based in Minnesota and described himself as a former founder of Food Forest Abundance. After leaving that company, he started Food Forest Design Minnesota and has been developing a market for food forest designs and installations in the state. He is also developing the Food Forest Design Network and working on plans for Sovereign Acres.

Cormac Harkin hosts The Permaculture Vine Podcast. During the conversation, Cormac drew on his own experience designing properties, including the time involved in researching sites and plants, and discussed his own use of AI for tasks such as turning podcast transcripts into articles.

Rebuilding After Losing Access to Social Media

Travis began by describing what had happened to his business over the previous year. He said he lost access for around three months to services connected to Facebook, including Facebook Marketplace, Instagram, WhatsApp and his Facebook pages.

He estimated that this removed around 75% of his lead generation. It also affected existing projects because he had been using Facebook Marketplace to connect with vendors supplying trees and other materials for installations.

When he eventually regained access, his advertising account was gone and he had also lost a Facebook group with around 25,000 members. Travis said the experience led him to make changes to his business and build systems that would be less dependent on the same platforms.

He also described a more recent incident on TikTok, where a live video was stopped after automated moderation appeared to interpret him sitting in a stationary car as driving while livestreaming. In that case, Travis said he contacted TikTok through its feedback system and regained access to live video within a few days.

Building the Food Forest Design Network

The conversation then moved to the Food Forest Design Network.

Travis described it as a nationwide network intended to connect food forest designers and installers with customers while also providing training, technology and business infrastructure.

Food Forest Design Minnesota is the owner of the network, and Travis described his existing Minnesota business as the model he is using to develop the wider system.

Part of the network is aimed at people who want to start a food forest design and installation business but do not yet have the business infrastructure in place. Travis said the system includes training alongside a website, customer relationship management system and lead-generation tools.

His aim is to provide members with much of the infrastructure required to operate the business rather than requiring each designer to build those systems independently.

AI and Business Administration

A substantial part of the discussion focused on Travis’s use of AI within his business.

He explained that installing food forests can mean spending eight, nine or ten hours working on a property before returning home to emails, telephone calls, direct messages and other administrative work.

To reduce that workload, he has developed AI systems to handle parts of the lead-follow-up process. He described systems that can respond through voice, text, email and social media messages and continue following up with potential clients over an extended period.

Cormac distinguished this kind of administrative use from some other uses of AI that he does not particularly like. The discussion also covered AI agents more generally, with Cormac describing them as systems trained to perform particular functions and pass information between different stages of a workflow.

One example discussed was podcast production, where one agent could transcribe an episode and another could use that transcript to produce an article.

An AI-Assisted Food Forest Design Process

Travis has also been developing an AI-assisted food forest design system.

He said the system begins by gathering information from the client about the property and what they want from it. Questions can cover what they want to grow, existing structures, utilities and issues such as standing water.

That information can then be combined with property data including soil type, wind patterns, snowfall, rainfall and elevation. Travis said the system can also gather topographical information and use photographs supplied by the client.

A further stage uses the collected information to help assemble the design, including plant choices appropriate to the location and combinations of plants within guilds.

Cormac compared this with his own design experience, saying that the fastest he had completed a quarter-acre design was around ten days. Travis said his aim is for the AI-assisted process to reduce that type of design work to a day or two by reducing the amount of time spent gathering and processing information.

Keeping the Designer in the Process

The conversation also addressed where the human designer sits within that system.

Cormac said he was particularly interested in using AI for scientific and site data but would be less comfortable with an AI conducting a business telephone call with him. He asked whether the design process would still involve human oversight.

Travis said he was not removing the human element. The system is intended as a tool for the designer rather than a system that simply produces a finished design directly for the customer.

Cormac also raised the value of designers learning through the slower process of researching plants and exploring possibilities themselves. In his own experience, searching through plants for different regions had led him to species he might otherwise not have encountered.

The discussion therefore covered both the potential reduction in design time and the continuing role of designers in reviewing, understanding and explaining the resulting design.

Visualising a Food Forest Over Time

Another part of the system Travis is developing involves visual representations of how a food forest could change after planting.

He described plans to produce images showing the property at planting and then at one, five, ten and twenty years. The intention is to give the property owner a visual representation of how the planting could develop.

Travis is also researching drone technologies, including LiDAR, that could gather property information and contribute to a three-dimensional model of a site.

Cormac noted that this could help customers visualise what the finished project is intended to look like and understand how it may change over time.

Travis also said reducing the amount of labour involved in preparing a design could reduce its cost. He gave an example of designs that might currently cost a client between $2,500 and $3,500 when they require ten days to two weeks of design work.

Sovereign Acres

The conversation then moved from individual food forest properties to a much larger project.

Travis described Sovereign Acres as a proposed flagship project in Minnesota, planned at around 150 to 200 acres. At the time of the conversation, he was looking for suitable properties and developing visuals to accompany the business plan.

He described the project as an off-grid community that could later provide a model for other locations. Those locations would not necessarily need to be the same size, with Travis suggesting that smaller versions could occupy around 50 acres.

The proposed Minnesota site would include residential lots, with Travis describing five-acre off-grid properties intended to provide food, water and energy.

Homes, Food Production and Education

Travis also described a range of smaller accommodation planned for Sovereign Acres, including shipping-container homes, yurts and geodesic domes.

Some accommodation could be used seasonally, while other lots could be purchased for permanent residence. He also discussed shorter stays similar to an Airbnb arrangement.

The wider site is planned to include food forests, a community centre, fitness and wellness facilities, greenhouses for year-round growing and a nursery supplying trees and berry bushes.

Education is also part of the proposal. Travis described accommodation that could house permaculture designers while they undertake a PDC, work on the land and gain practical experience.

The nursery would also supply plants for food forest projects being installed for clients elsewhere in Minnesota.

Funding and Developing the Property

Cormac asked how Travis planned to move from the concept to acquiring the land.

Travis described the project in phases. The initial stage involves raising capital and forming a board. The next stage would involve identifying and acquiring suitable land, including bringing in advisers to assess potential properties.

Once a property had been acquired, a later phase could involve selling residential lots. Travis said the money generated through those lot sales could return part of the initial investment capital.

At the time of the conversation, the project remained at the stage of seeking property and preparing the plans and visuals.

Governance and Living in Community

Cormac raised previous podcast conversations about intentional communities and asked how Travis was approaching governance and agreements between residents.

Travis referred to another off-grid community that he has been looking to for guidance. He described an approach in which residents bring different skills and help each other with projects.

As an example, he described a situation where a message might go out asking residents to help with a concrete pour, resulting in dozens of people arriving to complete the work together.

For Sovereign Acres, Travis said residents would control their own properties rather than operating under a homeowners’ association. The discussion also touched on restrictions around the use of chemicals within the wider community.

AI, Water and Business

Towards the end of the conversation, Travis returned to the subject of AI and the concerns people raise about the technology.

He discussed criticism of water consumption by data centres and compared this with water used in agricultural irrigation. Cormac brought up water-company leaks and the discharge of sewage into the sea where he lives.

The conversation broadened briefly into how companies respond to environmental problems, with both discussing the tension they see between environmental concerns and commercial priorities.

Designing Through the Minnesota Winter

The final part of the conversation returned to Minnesota and the approaching winter.

Travis said temperatures were still in the 60s and 70s at the time of recording but expected them to fall quickly through October, with frost and frozen ground potentially arriving by November.

For him, the winter period provides time to concentrate on developing his systems and preparing for the following spring.

It is also a period when design work can continue even when installation work outside becomes more difficult.

Closing

Episode 130 covered the development of Travis Holzem’s work since his previous appearance on the podcast, from rebuilding Food Forest Design Minnesota after losing access to important online platforms to creating the Food Forest Design Network.

The conversation also covered AI-assisted administration and food forest design, the continuing role of the human designer, visualisation and property data, and Travis’s plans for Sovereign Acres as an off-grid community incorporating housing, food production, education, greenhouses and a nursery.

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