Can a symphony orchestra show us how to lead a team? Why do some groups perform brilliantly with one person in front of them and poorly with another?
In this episode of Productivity Smarts, Gerald J. Leonard sits down with Charles Grimes, a business psychologist, leadership consultant, lifelong choral singer, and author of A Question of Leadership, to explore what 30 years of working with leaders and performing alongside professional orchestras have taught him about high-performing teams.
Charles shares the story of a disengaged choir that transformed in minutes when a conductor arrived, convinced the piece was worth doing. Together, they connect it to roving leadership, where leadership passes between people depending on who has the ball, as in a jazz quartet or a rugby match. Charles explains why listening is the core skill of great teams, why leadership is a relationship built one person at a time, and why musicians welcome feedback that most workplaces avoid.
They also cover preparation without perfectionism, balancing confidence with humility, and why practice matters more than performance. Charles closes with three questions every leader should ask: What is really going on? Who am I becoming? How do I help my people thrive?
If you want to listen better, lead in a way that lifts your team, and make practice a habit, this conversation offers a fresh perspective from the world of music.
What We Discuss
- [02:01] Introducing Charles Grimes and A Question of Leadership
- [02:59] Bach, joy, and writing a cantata every week
- [06:19] How singing and business psychology came together
- [10:03] The conductor who transformed a disengaged choir
- [14:16] Why struggling sports teams replace the coach
- [16:46] Jazz and roving leadership: how the lead moves around the band
- [19:10] Headship versus leadership
- [19:52] What orchestras understand about high-performing teams
- [20:13] Listening vertically and horizontally
- [27:07] Leadership is a relationship, not a list of tips
- [28:57] Feedback: why musicians accept it and workplaces avoid it
- [32:56] Preparation without perfectionism
- [34:31] Moving between confidence and humility
- [37:30] Why practice and rehearsal matter more than performance
- [38:41] Who are you becoming as a leader?
- [40:40] What a conductor is really for
- [44:17] “It’s who he was”: leadership beyond title and role
- [45:56] How to connect with Charles
Notable Quotes
- [21:02] “I believe that they are the orchestras, professional orchestras, that the the highest performing teams that you get anywhere because it is quite extraordinary" - Charles Grimes
- [19:10] “They have the headship. But as you've just been explaining, the leadership moves round.” - Charles Grimes
- [27:23] “Leadership is about a relationship, and you’ve got to have a relationship with each of those people in your team.” - Charles Grimes
- [29:36] “I don’t take it personally. You don’t take it personally. It’s just constant feedback.” - Charles Grimes
- [31:21] “Feedback is the breakfast of champions.” - Gerald J. Leonard
- [34:19] “Aim for excellence, but not for perfection.” - Charles Grimes
- [35:43] “You’ve got to have confidence, but you’ve also got to be humble.” - Charles Grimes
- [44:28] “It wasn't about his title. It wasn't about his role. It was about who he was as a person.” - Gerald J. Leonard
Resource and Links
Charles Grimes
Productivity Smarts Podcast
Gerald J. Leonard
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