In this episode, Saswat Panigrahi, Waymo's CPO, joins me for the third conversation in the "Inside PM" series. Saswat joined Waymo in 2016, back when it was still Google's self-driving car project and the entire product team was fewer than five people, and has spent all ten years since on the same product. In this episode, we discuss how his product org had to invent its own way of measuring good when there was no dashboard to check, why he hires and promotes for competence, courage, and compassion, and what it takes to be an executive builder at Waymo.
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Key topics:
• Cutting severe injuries "sixteen-fold"
• Why measuring good driving became its own product, staffed by dedicated eval PMs
• Why specifying what good looks like is AI's hardest problem
• Injecting rain and fog into simulated scenes instead of waiting a decade for the real thing
• The living room pitch to Waymo's first driverless riders
• Avoiding "Brownian motion": channeling vision into tracks a team can actually execute
• Spotting curiosity and grit in candidates in the age of AI
• Training to the point of failure
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Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
03:25 Joining Google's self-driving car project before it was Waymo
07:15 Why "feeling the pain" of failures builds real product leadership
08:56 Motivating a team a decade away from a real product
14:38 Was there ever a moment you thought this wouldn't work
16:15 Why measuring "good" driving became its own product, staffed by dedicated eval PMs
18:55 The living room pitch to Waymo's first driverless riders
21:11 Confronting the 40,000 deaths US roads accept every year
23:46 Cutting severe injuries "sixteen-fold"
27:59 Training to the point of failure
33:27 Spotting curiosity and grit in candidates in the age of AI
37:14 Integrity, and sleeping at night over what you approved
41:02 A tree of metrics, not a union list of 37 dashboards
47:14 Competence, courage, and compassion: what builds followership
53:53 What AI has democratized for product discovery and research
57:41 Why specifying "what good looks like" is AI's hardest problem
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Referenced:
• AMD
• Edwin Markham's poem on preparedness
• Google X
• Inside PM at Meta
• Inside PM at Stripe
• MMLU
• NASA
• Piccadilly Circus
• Transformers
• Waymo
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Where to find Nikhyl:
• Twitter/X
• LinkedIn
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Where to find Saswat:
• Twitter/X
• LinkedIn
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Join The Skip:
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• Skip Community
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Find The Skip:
• Website
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• YouTube
• Spotify
• Apple Podcasts
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