Don't Just Do Something

What do you fix first when everything seems to need attention? Caroline faced that question while helping former students navigate life beyond United Schools. She wanted to jump in and start fixing everything, but she took a surprising step instead.

In this episode, John Dues shares how a simple Post-it exercise helped them clarify what was affecting much of her department's work and gave Caroline a direction for her energy. Along the way, he and host Andrew Stotz get into "solutionitis," the danger of seeing too much, and why tempting solutions can lead us astray.

 

If you've ever felt the pull to just do something, this one is for you.

 

TRANSCRIPT

0:00:02.1 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we dive deeper into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today I'm continuing my discussion with John Dues, who is part of the new generation of educators striving to apply Dr. Deming's principles to unleash student joy in learning. Now, the topic for today is See Before You Solve, and it gets to a tension that I think we all face and leaders face. We know something needs to improve and our instinct is to immediately start figuring out what to do about it. Like, "Do something, don't just stand there." And John, before we turn on the recorder, you mentioned something about the alumni services department at United Schools and what you were doing with it and what was happening a few years ago. Maybe you can kick off with that.

 

0:01:00.2 John Dues: Yeah, I thought, well, it's good to be back, Andrew. And I thought it'd be interesting... This has come up and in my work, and kind of, applying some of these Deming ideas. The Deming philosophy to something real life sometimes can help kind of bring it alive. So I thought this could be an interesting topic for this episode. And for folks that... We haven't mentioned United Schools in a while, but that's where I work. It's a K-8 system. It's a bit unique in that our relationship with our students doesn't end after that eighth grade year. We don't have a high school in our system right now. And so what we do have, kind of the next best thing, is this alumni services department that serves those eighth graders once they leave our program and then go on to high school. And they not only follow them... The folks in that department... They don't just follow them into high school, but beyond too.

 

0:01:55.8 John Dues: So once they get through high school and they help them sort of navigate that, then whatever it is they do next, whether that's college or military, trade, or a career, we continue to provide follow-on services. And that department has a director that I work with on a regular basis. Her name's Caroline Durbin, and she was kind of a high school counselor and then came to work for us about seven years ago and has kind of built this department from scratch. And so she... Lots of things kind of went off the rails during the pandemic in schools. And kind of, along those lines, she's thinking about, as we're kind of, turning a corner a few years ago from that pandemic time, or at least the heart of it, she knew that her department needed to improve too. And I think the thing that she was struggling with, though, was where does she start? There's no shortage of possibilities when you run a department like that.

 

0:02:58.3 John Dues: She was thinking about things like, how do you increase alumni engagement? How do you get kids, once they leave us, to enroll in those services? How do you deal with information about alumni that's incomplete? And there were some other pain points too. Any one of these things could have become its own improvement project. And I think that's a situation that a lot of leaders face. It's like, you know things aren't working as well as they should. You see five or [chuckle] even 10 legitimate problems that you could tackle, and the natural reaction is then, "Okay, which one of these are we going to fix? Where do we start?" That's the kind of thing.

 

0:03:42.0 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. And before we get to where you're going to start, I want to tip my hat to Caroline and also to my counselor from high school, Fred Zigler. Fred helped a lot of us at a very challenging time in our lives. And I was thinking about this idea of alumni services for you guys. Like, "Oh, just let them go, kids go." But really, the relationships that we build are so critical. And Fred helped me address alcohol and drug addiction and get me into treatment, talked with my parents, helped me. And to this day. Now, that was 1982 when he helped me, and to this day, I'm still in touch with him and still see the value that he brought to my life at that moment. So just tipping my hat there. So, John.

 

0:04:29.9 John Dues: Yeah, that's incredible. In fact, Caroline, just this week, one of the things they do is they take our alumni once they get into high school, they take them on college visits. So they just went to Kent State and Xavier, two different groups this week, and she led them on those college visits. Pretty cool stuff.

 

0:04:46.5 Andrew Stotz: I imagine the Kent State campus has changed a lot since I was there studying, but yeah, just a good memory right there. So tell us, where did you start?

 

0:04:57.8 John Dues: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question. What we did was we didn't just pick one of those problems and immediately get to work. The first thing that we did together was just sort of slow things down a bit and really what we were trying to do is just kind of step back and start by trying to better understand what was happening. And so basically, we just literally took the various pain points that Caroline brainstormed, the different things she was seeing in her department. We just literally wrote each one on a Post-it note. Then we took the Post-it notes and kind of grouped them into common themes. And then we basically looked at how each of those themes was impacting the others. And over time, we basically used this exercise to see which one had the most arrows pointing away from it, meaning it was causing other problems. And the thing that came out on top was unknown alumni data.

 

0:06:09.8 John Dues: So basically, what was happening was that we didn't always have or completely capture students' data as they were leaving us or, over time, things would change. They would change high schools or change programs or whatever. And so we had all this incomplete information about our alumni. And that really was impacting Caroline's ability to understand other parts of the department's work. I mean, it made it hard to know how former students were doing, where did they need support, and it also made it hard to understand where our efforts were actually making a difference. So that gave Caroline a place to start.

 

0:06:51.5 Andrew Stotz: So she knew she had problems before you did the exercise. So what changed?

 

0:06:58.8 John Dues: Yeah, I mean, I think she didn't necessarily have more information, but she just had this better way of seeing the information that she already had, frankly. And that's an important distinction. Caroline knew something needed to improve, but she didn't start by choosing a solution. She started by literally stepping back and seeing her alumni system.

 

0:07:27.0 Andrew Stotz: And I guess this is probably pretty hard for all of us in leadership in that we get caught up in what we're doing and then we kind of narrow our focus, I'm thinking. So we tend to jump from seeing a problem directly to just trying to say, "Let's fix this. Do something."

 

0:07:45.2 John Dues: Yeah. And I think, that's what we're paid to do as leaders. We're paid to solve problems. And I think it's natural that when something isn't working, we turn our attention toward some type of action because that feels good. What are we going to change? Who's going to do it? How quickly can we get started? And I don't think that bias towards action is inherently bad because organizations, you don't improve your organization by endlessly discussing your problems or admiring your problems. Eventually, you have to act. But I think knowing that a system needs to improve, it's not the same as knowing where to begin. And I think that's really where leaders can get into trouble. This disappointing result appears and then immediately plausible solutions start coming to mind. This happens all the time. Your reading scores are low, adopt a new curriculum. Your team has communication problems, let's add another meeting to the calendar. A department's having trouble keeping track of its work, let's buy a new technology platform. And sometimes those things can be useful, but I think that the key thing is that seeing a problem isn't the same as understanding what's producing that underlying problem.

 

0:09:13.1 Andrew Stotz: And I think you use the term solutionitis. [laughter] What…tell us about that?

 

0:09:20.7 John Dues: Yeah, I mean, I like a lot of these ideas. I can't take credit. I'm sure I came across it in a book. I think maybe Learning to Improve, Tony Bryk's book, is maybe where I originally saw that. But basically, solutionitis is this tendency to prescribe changes before we've adequately understood what's happening. So the thing is we make this leap almost immediately from "something isn't working" to "here's what we should do about it." And I think the real problem is when that solution comes before an adequate diagnosis. And one of the dangers there is that then the most visible problem or maybe the most frustrating problem, it isn't necessarily always the best place to focus improvement or where to start, 'cause problems rarely exist in isolation. They're part of a system, and it's the relationship among those parts that can be just as important as the individual problems themselves. And I think that's really what that Post-it exercise, a very simple Post-it exercise with Caroline, it helped us to kind of, see together eventually.

 

0:10:31.4 Andrew Stotz: I visualize going into the doctor's office and just about to explain what problem I'm having, and the doctor says, "Here's the prescription." [chuckle]

 

0:10:41.8 John Dues: Right. Right.

 

0:10:44.0 Andrew Stotz: Wait a minute, isn't there a diagnosis step in between? [chuckle]

 

0:10:48.3 John Dues: Yeah. Yep. And sometimes people kind of, I actually asked people recently, like, "Where do I add value as an improvement advisor?" I asked a series of questions. And then I also asked them, "Where when I'm not effective as an improvement advisor, what's the situation?" And one person said, "Sometimes when something needs to happen really quickly, sometimes you want to make it into a process, which most of the time I appreciate, but sometimes you just need to move quickly." And I take that. That is a perfect description of me. But my only pushback to that is almost all the time, even though I tend to slow things down in most situations, it almost always, in the long run, you sort of create a more robust solution. So it's very hard, especially when the pressure is on. [chuckle]

 

0:11:47.7 Andrew Stotz: I'm picturing them drawing a picture of you sitting, smoking a cigar in a comfortable chair, and behind you is a burning house.

 

0:11:56.3 John Dues: Yeah. Yeah.

 

0:11:57.2 Andrew Stotz: And they think, "House on fire, house on fire, you gotta do." But what they don't realize, of course, is that almost all of it is common cause variation, and by reacting to it, you're actually just... So anyways, so you described what you did with Caroline as almost like a funnel. So maybe tell us a little bit more about that.

 

0:12:20.7 John Dues: Yeah, I mean, I think what I'm trying to get at there is that when you're trying to sort of understand a problem at the beginning, the funnel is very wide, meaning there's all kinds of possible opportunities for improvement. So the challenge isn't necessarily generating more ideas. I mean, I think the challenge is really narrowing those possibilities intelligently. With Caroline, we started with all those pain points that she had pointed out. We put them on Post-it notes. And then the thing about that was we just got them out of her head and made them visible. We wrote them down and then we again grouped them to see those larger themes. And then when we took a look at the relationships among the different themes, it really helped us to sort of distinguish between problems that were relatively isolated and those that were really impacting multiple parts of her alumni services system.

 

0:13:19.8 John Dues: And that's how the unknown alumni data went from being one problem among many to a really logical place to begin the work, to begin that improvement work. And I think that's really what I mean by "see the system." So get clear about what you're trying to accomplish, understand what's happening now, look for patterns and relationships, and then use that understanding to identify something of consequence that's an opportunity for improvement. It doesn't give you the solution, but it does give you a more informed place to begin.

 

0:13:54.6 Andrew Stotz: And once the unknown alumni data emerged as the place to begin, I'm trying to think about how I would deal with that. I mean, for me, that just feels overwhelming. Like it's just every day that goes by, it's harder to get that data. It's just, I'm just curious. So tell us more about what happened.

 

0:14:19.3 John Dues: Yeah, and then that's where really Caroline then kicked into high gear. She started taking action pretty quickly. And what that action ultimately sparked was this complete redesign of United's alumni data tracking system. She created some new trackers, some new data visualizations, and she actually, we tapped an ex-employee that had gotten into data, advanced data work, and we kind of hired her as a consultant to help us. But she didn't just design this whole new thing and then declare it finished after a month or something. She basically, since we did this work a few years ago, she's kept refining the system and used it and then learned what's working and what's not, and she continually improves this data system. And now sort of, when I kind of followed up with Caroline recently about that work we had started a number of years ago, she said, the alumni data, it's the most complete that it's ever been.

 

0:15:26.6 John Dues: And I think the sequence that she followed really mattered. She didn't begin with, "We need a new tracker." The tracker was downstream or the visualization dashboard was downstream from the learning about the system. First thing we did was develop enough understanding to identify the alumni data as a meaningful leverage point, and then she started developing the solutions around that basically.

 

0:15:53.6 Andrew Stotz: And you just said, "enough understanding." So that's another important distinction. Because couldn't "see the system first" become an excuse? I mean, for the whole point is this analysis paralysis, the sitting in front of a burning house. I don't know, tell us more about that.

 

0:16:15.0 John Dues: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I think that's the danger of taking that particular idea too far. "We need to understand the system" can definitely become an excuse for endless analysis. And that's definitely not what I'm suggesting. Caroline and I, we didn't sit down and map every process in alumni services. We didn't collect every possible piece of data. We didn't resolve every uncertainty. We just needed enough understanding to make a reasoned choice about where to focus. And once we chose that alumni data, the unknown alumni data as the focus, as that key leverage point, Caroline began to move forward. So this happened pretty quickly. That sort of see the system, the step back transitioned into action within just a month or so, pretty quickly. But the key thing is that seeing before solving doesn't mean seeing everything before acting. It just means seeing enough to choose intelligently where to begin, then you act. And then once you start acting, you continue that learning process.

 

0:17:23.2 Andrew Stotz: Yeah, I like that because it's so easy to get into overwhelm when you say, "Let's look at the system." [chuckle] And the next thing you know, there's you're thinking about the US Congress and the system of global trade or whatever. It's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We went too far. So now there's another part of this story that I found interesting and that's that you describe Caroline as having the inside view and you as bringing an outside view. Tell us more what you mean.

 

0:17:54.2 John Dues: Yeah, we both work for the same organization. So this can happen with two people that work for the same organization or often this will happen with someone that hires an outside consultant for this reason. But what I'm basically saying is that Caroline knew alumni services far better than I did. She understood our alumni, she understood the department's processes, she knew what information they had and didn't have. She understood the frustrations that came with her work. That's what I mean by the inside view. And I think that type of knowledge is absolutely essential. I couldn't have walked into alumni services and told Caroline what she needed to change because I didn't know enough about it. I brought something different. It's almost a good thing that I wasn't immersed in the department's day-to-day work. Instead, sort of what I was bringing was the improvement methods, basically. So I could bring this process for stepping back from the individual problems and making the system more visible and deciding where to focus. That's what I mean by the outside view.

 

0:19:00.5 Andrew Stotz: So which perspective is more important? You've got someone on the inside, you can't do what they're doing, and someone on the outside and they can't do what you're doing. How do we think about these two?

 

0:19:11.8 John Dues: Yeah, I think it's interesting. I think Deming said something to the effect of a person can understand everything about their job except for how to improve it. Right. And so I think that's what this inside-outside thing really gets at. It's neither one is sufficient by itself. And I think that's really one of the most important lessons from Caroline's story. I didn't know enough about alumni services to tell her what needed to change, but Caroline's deep experience with the department hadn't automatically revealed to her where she should begin either. I think the value came from putting that inside and that outside view together. When I asked her to sort of reflect on this work from a few years ago, she really described my role as providing improvement expertise and guidance while giving her the space to identify what needed improvement, and then she was able to create something that worked for her department. And I think that's exactly right. I think that's the right balance for those two things.

 

0:20:09.2 Andrew Stotz: And that's a very different role for the leader or advisor than coming in with the answer, which I think a lot of people expect that the leader is going to come in and go, "I know how to handle this."

 

0:20:19.6 John Dues: Yeah, I mean, I think that's exactly right. And I think that's where this becomes a broader leadership principle rather than just a story about improvement advising. I think the people closest to the work often possess knowledge, like Caroline, that someone on the outside can never have. And I think that's incredibly valuable. It's a prerequisite for improvement, I think. But at the same time, being so immersed in that day-to-day work in that system can also make it difficult to step back and see those patterns and relationships and possibilities differently. And I think that's really where that outside perspective can provide some distance, and it can bring some different questions, and it can bring, again, those improvement methods. But I think the purpose of that outside perspective shouldn't be to replace the knowledge of the people closer to the work.

 

0:21:10.3 John Dues: It should be to help them see their own systems more clearly. And ideally, it strengthens their ability to improve the system themselves. And that's really what happened with Caroline. Once she had a clear place to start, my role became much smaller. She owned the work. She developed the new data system. She's continued to refine it over time. And that's really, I think, what we should want as organizational leaders.

 

0:21:38.2 Andrew Stotz: So successful improvement advising makes the advisor less necessary over time, or what does it mean?

 

0:21:47.8 John Dues: Yes, I think that's exactly right. [chuckle] If I'm the only person who can see the problem, determine what to change, and direct the improvement work, then what I'm creating is dependence. And that's definitely not the goal. The goal is to build that improvement capability in the people that own the work. In Caroline's case, the outside perspective helped her see the system differently, but she had the knowledge to build something that actually worked for her department. And then, like I said, she's continued to improve it over time. And that's, to me, that's a much more sustainable model of improvement than we often see.

 

0:22:24.2 Andrew Stotz: Yeah, and it's hard because I think as an advisor, you want to feel like you're bringing value, and when you're working yourself out, it's, kind of, it goes against what some people may feel. But I can see the value of saying, basically, I'm helping you solve this and then get on with what you're doing. So if someone... If a listener remembers only one thing from this conversation, what do you want them to get from it?

 

0:22:51.3 John Dues: Yeah, I mean, I would say, remember that title: See Before You Solve. So when leaders know something needs to improve... We've talked about this across many episodes that... Yeah, pressure to start solving can be intense. And there's no shortage of problems in organizations and even more possible solutions. And so knowing that something needs to improve isn't the same as knowing where to begin. So I just go back to, before "What are we gonna do about it?", start making that system visible. Look for those patterns, look at relationships. Combine the knowledge of the people closest to the work with perspectives that can help them step back and see the system differently. And don't wait for perfect understanding. See enough to make an intelligent choice about where to begin and then get to work. If I had to reduce the topic to three basic ideas, they'd be, first, see the system. Start there. Start by seeing the system. Second, combine those inside and the outside views. And then third, see enough to start. You eventually have an answer to "What are we gonna do about it?", but first, see that system well enough to know where to begin.

 

0:24:09.5 Andrew Stotz: Well, I'd say that's a pretty good wrap-up. So on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute, I want to thank you again for this discussion. And for listeners, remember to go to deming.org and jump into DemingNEXT to continue your journey. You can find John's book, "Win-Win: W. Edwards Deming, the System of Profound Knowledge, and the Science of Improving Schools" on Amazon.com. This is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming, "People are entitled to joy in work."