Francis Fukuyama is the Olivier Nomellini Senior Fellow at Stanford University's Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies (FSI), and a faculty member of FSI's Center on Democracy, Development and the Rule of Law (CDDRL). He is also Director of Stanford's Ford Dorsey Master's in International Policy, and a professor (by courtesy) of Political Science. In addition he is the author of several books. His most recent titles are Liberalism and Its Discontents, Identity: The Demand for Dignity and the Politics of Resentment, and the upcoming In the Realm of the Last Man: A Memoir.
Greg and Francis talk about Frank’s “End of History” thesis and later work on liberalism, identity, trust, and political order. Fukuyama argues long-run historical progress is visible in the gap between developed and developing societies, but he still sees no coherent “higher” alternative to liberal democracy and market society. He also explains that modern discontent through generational forgetting of 20th-century horrors and a deeper human desire for recognition and struggle (thymos), including megalothymia - the drive for superiority, which can turn tyrannical.
They discuss how modern prosperity arose from Europe’s unique mix of innovation culture, political fragmentation, religious schism, and family changes that fostered individualism. Frank contrasts state strength with constraint, and traces democracy’s path through England to parliament and common law, critiques American anti-statism in state-building, and examines China vs India. They also discuss war’s effects on state capacity, the internet’s role in polarization and factual disagreement, and the need for shared liberal norms.
*unSILOed Podcast is produced by University FM.*
Episode Quotes:
The collapse of a shared factual basis
[47:23] Liberal societies need to tolerate viewpoint diversity, but what we're seeing goes way beyond this. This is kind of empirical, factual diversity where people don't accept the same factual basis of the nature of the world. So, you know, are vaccines safe? Well, we used to think there was consensus about that because you have this whole accepted scientific system for empirical testing of propositions like that, and for some reason now people don't trust that anymore, or, you know, who won the last election, sort of, issue. Very hard to have a democracy if you disagree about whether you had a free and fair election, right? And these, again, I think would not have existed in the pre-internet age, that kind of disagreement over just simple factual information.
The absence of a higher alternative to liberal democracy
[05:18] A lot of people have lost faith in liberal democracy, but I still don't see anyone posing a real alternative of a higher society.
Does the rule of law hold without shared norms?
[54:46] One thing that the last few years have taught me is that, in a way, you know, we used to think there's law and there are norms, and the norms are basically more flighty and less weighty, but the law is really a big barrier to bad action. And I think we're realizing that's not true. Everything is normative.
Why the drive for superiority can't simply be eliminated
[12:42] It was Bob Iger or some big CEO who wanted to climb the seven highest mountains in the world, you know? So there's a lot of ways that you can demonstrate your superiority that are basically, if not socially constructive, they're at least peaceful; you know, they're not going to harm other people. But it turns out that for Donald Trump, at least that wasn't enough. And I think that's a basic problem. You want outlets for this, what I call "megalothumia." This is the desire to be recognized as superior, and basically you can't have a society without that. I mean, you're not going to have any great baseball players, musicians, you know, philosophers if you don't have people that want to be excellent at something. But that also unleashes a kind of tyrannical desire to simply dominate, and I think that's the problem we're dealing with right now.
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