This conversation was recorded at GOTO Copenhagen 2025. https://gotocph.com
Martin Fowler - Pioneer of Various Topics around Object-Oriented Technology & Agile Methods Kent Beck - Software Engineer & Creator of Extreme Programming
RESOURCES Martin https://x.com/martinfowler https://www.martinfowler.com https://toot.thoughtworks.com/@mfowler https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-fowler-com
Kent https://bsky.app/profile/kentbeck.bsky.social https://www.kentbeck.com https://github.com/KentBeck https://twitter.com/KentBeck https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentbeck https://tidyfirst.substack.com/about
DESCRIPTION Martin Fowler and Kent Beck — two of the authors of the Agile Manifesto and perhaps the most influential duo in software engineering history — reunite for an unscripted conversation spanning thirty years of friendship, craft, and the relentless pace of change. They discuss how AI ("the Genie") has become a genuine part of both their workflows: Kent uses it as an endlessly patient tutor for exploration between features, while Martin distinguishes between AI as a tool for talking to computers versus the irreplaceable human skill of talking to the people who need software built. Both are optimistic about the future, though Kent's optimism takes characteristically sharp form: he expects the industry to keep making the same mistakes, which means he'll still be employed teaching the same lessons 20 years from now.
The conversation also revisits the Agile Manifesto at nearly 25 years old, with both reflecting on what Extreme Programming got right — feedback loops, testability, evolutionary design — and what the broader adoption missed or diluted. Martin is candid that progress in software has been slower than he'd like, though he points to a "forest" of practitioners who have genuinely advanced the craft. On the question of a Manifesto reunion, both gently redirect: it belongs to the next generation now. Their closing advice to a junior developer in the audience is perhaps the most memorable exchange in the whole session — use the gaps between features to learn, and never forget that understanding the domain and the people in it is ultimately what separates good programmers from great ones.
Read the full abstract here: https://gotocph.com/2025/sessions/3780
RECOMMENDED BOOKS Martin Fowler • Refactoring • https://amzn.to/3EVcHXQ Martin Fowler & Pramod Sadalage • NoSQL Distilled • https://amzn.to/3ChIpu7 Martin Fowler • Patterns of Enterprise Application Architecture • https://amzn.to/3lp4sIq Martin Fowler • Domain-Specific Languages • https://amzn.to/3nzOIFk Martin Fowler • UML Distilled • https://amzn.to/3kahjyA Kent Beck • Tidy First? • https://amzn.to/4gscjjK Kent Beck & Cynthia Andres • Extreme Programming Explained • https://amzn.to/3sBASDG Kent Beck • Test Driven Development • https://amzn.to/3U4AXLs Kent Beck, Fowler, John, William, Don & Gamma • Refactoring • https://amzn.to/3SFBYbN Kent Beck • Implementation Patterns • https://amzn.to/3sBlCGL
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