Bonus Conversation: Same Vocabulary, Different Spirit
What happens when the same fivefold vocabulary is used—but fueled by a radically different spirit?
In this episode, Rob Wegner, Brian Johnson, and Alan Hirsch dive into the fork in the road facing the Church today. On one side: the rise of the New Apostolic Reformation, steeped in hierarchy, dominion theology, and Christian nationalism. On the other: the Spirit-distributed, Jesus-shaped model of Ephesians 4 ministry—where power is cruciform and every disciple is activated.
This conversation unpacks why fivefold leadership isn’t just a theological side note—it’s a discipleship crisis, a leadership reckoning, and a call to rewild the Church. Same vocabulary. Different spirit. Totally different outcomes.
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