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In this episode of God Is Not a Theory, Ken Fish welcomes back Dr. Richard J. Roberts—medical doctor, former psychotherapist, and theologian with over 40 years in church leadership—to finish the conversation begun last week on the dark side of Christian leadership.
Having already covered narcissism, codependency, and paranoia, they turn to two more patterns that quietly derail leaders and wound those around them: the compulsive leader and the passive-aggressive leader. Dr. Richard J. Roberts explains why churches so often unintentionally advertise for—and reward—these very traits, why a gifted second-in-command can unravel once handed the top seat, and how anger that never gets named leaks out sideways and poisons a team.
From there the conversation widens. Ken and Dr. Richard J. Roberts walk through the Johari Window as a tool for self-awareness, weigh behavior-change against motive-hunting, and take on the deeper questions: Can these patterns actually be healed? What does real accountability look like? And how do two powerful archetypes—the "Great Mother" who must meet every need, and the "Wise Old Man" who offers secret, deeper-life knowledge—shape (and distort) charismatic church culture. They close with wise, practical counsel for anyone who finds themselves under an unhealthy leader.
Together, they discuss:
The compulsive leader: perfectionism, control, workaholism, and criticism of others
Why churches so often advertise for a "compulsive leader"
Provision, pay, and the abuse of underpaying ministry workers
The passive-aggressive leader: unowned anger, delay, barbed "humor," and the silent treatment
The Johari Window—and using "I" statements to open up blind spots
Behavior first, motive later: why changing the "how" often precedes the "why"
Whether these patterns are fixable, and why change usually comes through process and discomfort
Psychology vs. a theological lens—and recovering the care of souls
Two archetypes shaping the church: the "Great Mother" and the "Wise Old Man"
Discernment, angelic claims, and testing everything against the received gospel
What to do if you find yourself under an unhealthy leader
Honest, gracious, and deeply practical, this is a hope-filled conversation about the woundedness beneath the dysfunction—and the community, humility, and grace that make real change possible.
🔑 Key Takeaways
Churches often reward the very traits that harm them
Underpaying and overworking ministry staff is not godliness—it's abuse
Passive-aggression is unowned anger that leaks out sideways
Self-awareness grows through honest, loving feedback in real community
Changing behavior often comes before understanding the "why"
Change requires motivation—usually prompted by discomfort or desire
The "Great Mother" and "Wise Old Man" archetypes distort church culture
Test every teaching—even claimed angelic revelation—against the received gospel
In a narcissistic system, the wisest first step is often to get out
📘 Check out Dr. Richard J. Roberts' book, “Rediscovering Church as Networks”: https://a.co/d/0hD3wTJW
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