Flourishing With High Sensitivity & The Art of Gentle Rebellion

In this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with Andy Mort. I think you will appreciate his wisdom, poetic way with words and sense of humor. Andy is a UK-based songwriter and musician whose work as a creativity coach explores the intersection of high sensitivity, creativity, and the influence of culture.

Aside from sharing some of our own experiences with high sensitivity and gentle rebellion, we discuss various ways those of us with high sensitivity (as described by Elaine Aaron) might better align with our nature. We also discuss:

* 00:00 — High Sensitivity and Its Misconceptions

* 01:54 — The Concept of Differential Susceptibility and Environmental Impact

* 03:47 — Andy Mort’s Journey Into Understanding Temperament and Sensitivity

* 07:05 — The Discovery of the Highly Sensitive Person Trait and Its Biological Roots

* 09:58 — The Idea of Being a Gentle Rebel and Leading With Authenticity

* 14:51 — The Importance of Creating Supportive Environments for Sensitive People

* 19:47 — Creativity as a Form of Self-Expression and Nervous System Regulation

* 25:07 — The Role of Sensitivity in Leadership and Group Dynamics

* 29:58 — The Challenges and Opportunities of Sharing Creative Work

* 34:46 — The Societal Narratives Around Sensitivity and Self-Acceptance

* 39:57 — The Importance of Community and Support for Sensitive Individuals

* 45:06 — The Concept of Gentle Rebellion and Aligning With One’s Nature

* 49:45 — Closing Thoughts on Sensitivity, Creativity, and Leadership

Full transcript included below

Where to find Andy Mort:

* 🔗 Website: andymort.com

* 🏡 The Haven (his coaching community for gentle rebels): the-haven.co

* 🎧 The Gentle Rebel Podcast on Apple Podcasts: listen here

* 📺 The Gentle Rebel Podcast on YouTube: watch here

As always, I welcome your thoughts and questions.

Until next time,Courtney

Dr. Courtney Snyder MD is a holistic and functional psychiatrist for children and adults. Find her at courtneysnydermd.com and on the Holistic Psychiatry Podcast on all major platforms and on YouTube.

Medical Disclaimer: This newsletter is for educational purposes only and is not intended or implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Consult your own physician for any medical issues you may be having.

Full Transcript

Introduction to High Sensitivity and Its Misconceptions

00:00

Courtney: I was just reading on your website, how nicely you ask, “ What drew you here.” And you say — “you might have been told you’d solve your innate sensitivity by toughening up and squeezing yourself into a shape and rhythm you don’t belong to. But sensitivity is not a problem to fix. Working with it may require a creative way of understanding yourself, and of building environments and rhythms that support you.” Seems fitting with what we’re gonna talk about.

Andy Mort: Yeah, that’s good — it all, it all fits, it all relates together, yeah.

Courtney: It does. I should tell you too, the last podcast was on high sensitivity in children — helping parents sort of create environments for highly sensitive children to thrive. But this is more about how we can create our own lives. I think we’ll see where our conversation evolves, but how — how can we as adults do that?

The Concept of Differential Susceptibility and Environmental Impact

01:54

Andy Mort: Yeah, I think those two things are two sides of the same coin. And in the, I guess, the context of environmental sensitivity — I don’t know if you talked about sort of differential susceptibility, and that research that’s shown how the more sensitive you are, the more affected you are by your environment. And so for children — those early years’ environments are really important, in terms of, for better or worse, a sensitive child is impacted by their environment, and they will thrive and flourish if it’s nurturing and supportive, and vice versa if it’s not. But as we will, I think, talk about — that is not the end of the story. It’s not that there’s this sort of deterministic element that means you will forever be screwed as a sensitive person if you grow up in a non-supportive environment.

Courtney: Yeah.

Andy Mort: And there are things that we can get in place around us today that actually start to heal that stuff —

Courtney: Right.

Andy Mort: — if it’s gone wrong.

Courtney: Yeah, a lot of what I try to share is how people can lower that physiologic stress response — whether it’s related to toxins, trauma, early attachment. But included in that, and which I have never until recently spent time on, is how not being in alignment with our temperament would be creating a chronic physiologic stress response. You’ve been teaching, talking about high sensitivity — is it twelve years now, or is that really when your community started?

Andy Mort’s Journey Into Understanding Temperament and Sensitivity

03:47

Andy Mort: Yeah, the community started twelve years ago, 2014. And for a few years before that, I was exploring it really out of, I guess, the background was my music, as a songwriter and as a performer. I was exploring aspects of temperament and personality as it came up — as it was relevant, really, because I’ve found myself struggling with certain elements of going out on tour, being — yeah — both on the road and also at shows themselves, where it’s like, man, my energy is just depleted at certain points. And I’m finding myself energized by other things that don’t make a whole lot of sense when I speak to other people, who are like, how can you get on stage and perform? It’s like, well, that’s the part I love, that’s where I’m in my happy place. It’s the navigating to the venues, working out what am I going to eat, where am I — like, all of that sort of the details around it, like that. That was the stress for me. And so, started hearing or reading — there was articles about introversion, the first time I’d heard about introverts and extroverts at that point — and that just took me, I guess, down a rabbit hole that ended up with me talking about it, and then people responding to it, saying, that sounds like me, that’s similar to this situation I have at work. And it just all — yeah, I guess — kind of moved together, and ended up with me somewhat accidentally creating the community, but as a place for people to just gather and share those sorts of experiences, and for me to workshop things and stuff as well. Yeah, was never an intention — which is a theme in my life.

But then I kept seeing this term, highly sensitive person, coming up, and dismissed it over and over, because it didn’t feel particularly relevant. I think it was — as I’ve reflected on it, sort of in the years since — it’s the word “highly” rather than “sensitive” that I have a bit of a resistance to, because, like, to me, “highly” is associated with, like, being very highly strung, or, like, high — it’s like very high frequency, like the opposite of me, because I’m quite chilled out and calm —

Courtney: Right. Mm-hmm.

Andy Mort: — in situations and things like that. So yeah, highly sensitive was like — yeah, that combo doesn’t work.

The Discovery of the Highly Sensitive Person Trait and Its Biological Roots

07:05

Andy Mort: But then I just clicked through on one of these articles at some point, and landed on Elaine Aron’s initial self-test list. And for so many of the things, I was like — yeah. All but about three or four of them sounded right. And that made so much more sense as an underlying biological trait, rather than a personality type — because that allows for —

Courtney: Mm-hmm. Right.

Andy Mort: — like, all sorts of personalities, and preferences, and tastes, and all of that sort of stuff. It’s like, that’s more freeing, rather than what I kept seeing in these Myers-Briggs profiles, was — I’m being pushed into a box here, where the question is, do I rebel against that, or do I try and conform to how I’m supposed to be, given that I’ve got this label that I’m, you know, is defining me in some way. Yes.

Courtney: Right. And so this idea of there being just diversity within high sensitivity — I hesitate to categorize people, and at the same time, the language helps people to make sense of their experience, and how they might make choices for themselves. Your podcast — has that been in parallel?

Andy Mort: Yeah, I mean, that’s been in parallel with my own journey. It’s morphed — when I first did it, it was called Sheep Dressed Like Wolves, which I come back to now and, like, I quite like that title — because it was just this idea of, yeah, like, what we’re pushed to be when we’re pushed to be sort of hyper-individualistic. And it was like a play on “a wolf in sheep’s clothing,” the wolf that goes in and takes over the herd — but actually, to flip it around, and to think about how, actually, no, we are social creatures, but we’re forced to dress up like wolves. And what if — what if there was, yeah, another approach? But anyway, I let go of that, because I think I got lost in the metaphor, and then changed it to the Gentle Rebel Podcast — because that term just captured it better.

That was in 2014 as well, when I started the community. And I think it just captured the essence of what I kept seeing in people who were identifying with this trait of high sensitivity, and how there’s a nonconformity to the expectations that the world has for people, when it comes to actually navigating the world with a highly sensitive temperament — you need to do things differently. And there’s also a part of us that wants to do things differently, a lot of the time — and you kind of see, like, when you’re sort of noticing thing patterns, noticing subtleties, noticing the effect that things might be having, whether it’s individual people or culture more widely.

Courtney: Mm-hmm.

The Idea of Being a Gentle Rebel and Leading With Authenticity

09:58

Andy Mort: But the gentle part was, I think, as important as the rebel part, because there’s a reluctance to it, in a way, and a paradox that I felt — this contradiction at the heart of it, where, yeah, I am a rebel, but I hate being the center of attention, and I don’t really like being seen by people in many ways. But there’s this overriding sense of, like, you know, I care about justice —

Courtney: Mm.

Andy Mort: — and fairness, and all these things that I just can’t keep quiet when it comes to certain things when I see it happening. And so, yeah, those two things come together, and gentleness, I would define very much as a strength, rather than a soft — like a soft weakness. It’s actually — being able to use the terminology, I think Brené Brown —

Courtney: Mm.

Andy Mort: — coined it, but this sort of firm back and soft front idea.

Courtney: Right.

Andy Mort: Actually, no — you stand firm, you hold your shape, but you’re open to what comes. And I just really like that as an image of gentleness, because it’s not just sort of rolling over and letting things happen to you, but it’s also not being brittle in the face of other people. Yeah, I think it’s that — I did a lot of studying of stoicism a number of years ago, and it was like, there was elements of that philosophy that felt — you know, the idea of accepting things as they are, rather than wishing they were different, if you have no influence over them. It’s like classic, classic —

Courtney: Mm-hmm.

Andy Mort: — stuff. But I was interested in how to then integrate that into a philosophy of gentleness, really, and how, yeah, that is at the heart of that. Okay, this is how things are, this is how I am, and I’m gonna stand firm, but I’m also open to, yeah, the flexibility of how we might move forward, and address things, or change things, or whatever.

Courtney: Right, as opposed to trying to do it in the way that culture appears to promote — louder, more —

Andy Mort: Yeah, exactly.

Courtney: — forceful.

When you were talking about that, I was remembering how I found you, because I had searched on YouTube. I was grappling with Mel Robbins, having listened to part of her book, and I thought, something doesn’t feel right here — surely someone else is talking about this. So I got on there, and there you were, talking about it —

Andy Mort: Ha ha ha.

Courtney: — in a gentle and rebellious way, of just sort of laying out the information — not in an attacking way, but, these are the details of what appear to have happened. And it was just so refreshing, seeing somebody share their experience, their wisdom, their knowledge, in a way that was so different than what is typically online. So then I went to your website — who is this? And then discovered you had coaching, which I was so happy to see, and which I have continued to benefit from.

Andy Mort: That’s a great example of what I was just saying earlier, the thing that catches me. I think this is, again, something I’ve seen with many highly sensitive people — I love this term, “noticing what you notice.” Noticing the thing that catches your attention, like a thorn that catches your sleeve and just won’t let you go. That whole story was an example of that. I’d seen a couple of reels in passing from Mel Robbins’ posts in the past, but then I saw this post questioning the timeline of the “Let Them” theory. And I thought, I wonder what that’s about, and clicked through on it. If that’s true, I thought, that doesn’t sound okay. There was this poem that pre-existed the book, with a very similar cadence and feel, and no acknowledgement of it — even though it had gone viral in its own right. So I fell right down a rabbit hole digging into it. There’s a massive part of me that’s like, what are you doing, you don’t have time for this, why are you getting pulled into this story — but there was this other part that was like, this is too important not to speak about. That’s a real example of gentle rebellion, I think, from the past year.

Courtney: And — did any of it feel like sort of standing up for the highly sensitive — the original offering, the original creation, was seemingly co-opted by someone who knew how to put it out there —

Andy Mort: I — yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Courtney: — more loudly.

Andy Mort: Yeah, and I think there was this big difference as well between motivations. And this was a really interesting thing that I noticed in comments, because there were people who would say, well, Cassie Phillips is just not as good at promoting herself, or promoting the idea. Like, Mel’s taken advantage of her marketing expertise, and she’s won. And it was like — yeah, but I don’t think that Cassie has the same motivations underpinning the whole thing in the first place. And, you know, it’s something I spoke about over and over — Cassie herself said, you know, I wrote this poem, and it came from an experience of sort of making sense of domestic violence, and her marriage that she’d got out of, and everything. And it was, basically, a gift to other people who are in similar situations. That’s what people latched onto, and that’s why people then started getting these tattoos with “let them” on them — which, again, Mel Robbins took the credit for later on. But it was coming from a totally different place, and that felt — as your question implies — aligned with a creative philosophy, and also this sense of, like, this is sensitivity as it flourishes in life, and it’s being overridden by this completely insensitive other way of just co-opting and overpowering and trying to control something that was freely available to everyone. It’s trying to take it and hoard it back to a single person. Even as Mel Robbins would be talking about how it’s her community of millions of people benefiting from it — the underlying energy within it, I think, is a totally different story to where it came from.

The Importance of Creating Supportive Environments for Sensitive People

14:51

Courtney: And to even — I guess — try to copyright it, and pin it down in that way.

Andy Mort: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like trademarking the term. Yeah. There’s all those things that basically undermined a lot of the — people who were trying to defend Mel and saying, you know, this is an idea that’s been around for centuries, the Stoic philosophers talked about this, and it’s from Buddhism, and all of this stuff. It’s like, well, okay, that’s fine, but why is she trying to trademark it? Should I control it?

Courtney: Right.

Andy Mort: Like, yeah, that flies in the face of all of that.

Courtney: Yeah, yeah. In terms of, like, this idea of being a gentle rebel, or having that spirit with which one leads their life — it seems like it does hit on creativity. Just decisions about daily life for people that I work with, even that have chronic health issues, like the rebelliousness of just self-care and rest, quiet simplicity. But since we’re talking about creativity — how do you feel like that intersects? Because it seems like we’re in a world where if you create something, it’s to produce a product that’s to be seen and sold. Like, everything’s been put towards artists and entertainers, and the creative process seems to have become lost as far as the human experience.

Creativity as a Form of Self-Expression and Nervous System Regulation

19:47

Andy Mort: Yeah, there’s that large commodification of creativity, as you say — what are you doing it for, what are you going to end up with and be able to sell, what’s it going to say about your identity, all of this outcome stuff attached to it. It’s been a big part of my own personal life. I just shared a short film I created — I was at an HSP Association gathering in Finland last week, or the week before — documenting my own relationship with songwriting and music, as it relates to my sensitivity and my understanding of myself and other people. It was a really cathartic exercise, just going and creating it, because it took me back to really early childhood, where I’d use music to process stuff. Back in 2018, after the unexpected end of my marriage, I almost instinctively sat at the piano in my parents’ garage and started playing and singing, just throwing it all out. That eventually turned into something — six songs came out of it, over about a two-week process — not with the intention of writing songs, just letting the wastewater of what I’d been through flow through creative pipes. And that turned the pain into something eventually. Creativity has been such a part of that for me throughout my life, and it’s led to albums and songs that have taken tangible form, that I’ve been able to share with people. But that’s not where it started for me. I think there’s probably a rebelliousness in creating for creativity’s sake — it’s a way to discover who you are. There’s the Flannery O’Connor quote, “I write because I don’t know what I think until I read what I say.” I’ve always loved that, because it turns something outwards — whether it’s through writing or through music — and as you engage with what’s come out of you, you get a sense of what’s going on within you, what it’s telling you about your thoughts and feelings, how you’re perceiving a situation. So many positive benefits to creative practice — but you can’t contrive them.

Courtney: Mm-hmm. Like — but the way you describe it is almost like a window into the unconscious. I think for me, it’s been sort of learning that — trusting the process. Do you know, like, you don’t know where it’s going, but I feel like that’s — I’ve really learned that through art, that I couldn’t learn through this very linear planning, goal orientation — but art taught me, you don’t have to know where you’re going.

Andy Mort: Absolutely, yeah.

Courtney: I feel like it’s a — you know, we always hear about, like, nervous system regulation — creativity should be included in that. Not to make it clinical, but as people are thinking about tools to regulate their nervous system — just a creative act.

Andy Mort: 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the danger is you instrumentalize it, and you turn it into that kind of — it’s got to have this purpose to it, or it’s got to be useful. And that’s where we have to hold these kinds of things with a sense of both-and-ness, I suppose. ‘Cause, you know, you think — why have people written songs and sung together for as long as we’ve been probably around as humans, and shared stories around the campfire — that’s been a really important part of both knowledge sharing, but also of building trust and building safety within the community. And I think the offshoot of that is within that individual nervous system as well, is, yeah, the connection that is created through that shared experience of creativity. And I think that has always been the case, hasn’t it? And maybe we’re just sort —

Courtney: Yeah.

The Role of Sensitivity in Leadership and Group Dynamics

25:07

Andy Mort: — of catching up. And, yeah, you could use creativity for nervous system regulation. It’s like, yeah, absolutely — I think it’s absolutely core to it. Yeah.

Courtney: Mm-hmm. Right, just part of what our human condition should be. But when you say about creativity as the form of connection — I feel people who are highly sensitive very often are creative. But then the high sensitivity could be part of why they may not share, or use it as a means of connecting, because of shame, fear of criticism, vulnerability, perfectionism. What are your thoughts on that? I’m thinking about something we’ve talked about — my own tension around wanting to share information through social media, and how do I do that in a way that’s — not who — I’m not the celebrity doctor or the performer, but how do I do it in a way that feels true to my nature, comfortable, and do it — as opposed to, I think, what many of us can do, is to either not do it, or try so hard to do it in a way that’s not who we are, that it just doesn’t work, or it’s stressful.

Andy Mort: Yeah, I think that’s an amazing question, because the disconnect, as you say, with the highly sensitive person — the creativity just sort of flowing through many of us. And then that susceptibility to the potential harm of the critical response, or the words that can just land as a story within us, maybe, in those early years, where we’ve been told we’re not creative, or there’s certain stories that may have been absorbed even when they weren’t directed at us — when you hear somebody, like, sat around watching television, and —

Courtney: Mm-hmm.

Andy Mort: — somebody says something about someone on the TV, who do they think they are, look at that person, they look ridiculous doing whatever it is. Those kinds of stories can resurface when you take that vulnerable step of sharing something you’ve created — or it might just be that felt sense that it’s unsafe. Think of the highly sensitive person as a gluey part of the social order: the safety of the whole is based on people being okay, and we’re looking out for whether our people are okay, so I’m okay if they’re okay. That can shut us down, as we start to think, I want to do that, but who do I think I am, or I need to grow up, or whatever the story is that’s landed there. It’s also worth saying that sharing stuff is genuinely risky — not just a mindset thing. If you’re thinking about sharing your creativity with the world, you probably will get backlash. You just have to look on social media to see the vitriol thrown around without a second thought, and that could potentially derail you. So for me, one of the important parts is the safety of the environment you’re creating within — having, if possible, people around you who give you that support network, unconditional, not competitive. And when the hard experiences happen, they’re safe to go and talk about, and laugh about. Humor is another component I find so —

Courtney: Mm-hmm.

Andy Mort: — important, when it comes to finding a shock absorber, for those moments where the wind’s been taken out of your sails by a comment, or that experience was awful. And now I need to be able to laugh about it, not in a dismissive, belittling way, but in a way that makes it as light as it needs to be, so you can carry on moving forwards.

Courtney: Right, and I guess feeling understood too, by both.

The Challenges and Opportunities of Sharing Creative Work

29:58

Andy Mort: Yeah, yeah.

Courtney: Which the Haven is an opportunity for that.

Andy Mort: That’s what I’d aim to make that sort of space for people. Yeah. I am aware, saying that — a lot of us don’t have that around us, and that’s the problem. It’s growing up with people who maybe haven’t encouraged those aspects of who we are — maybe they’ve reinforced that story of, you’re too sensitive, you need to thicken your skin and grow up, or whatever it might be. And it’s not something you can just magic up, like, I need a group of people who are going to support me. That’s part of what my vision with the Haven is — to just be that place that is an unconditionally accepting environment where you’re —

Courtney: Yeah.

Andy Mort: — not feeling like you’re competing with everybody, and that kind of thing.

The Societal Narratives Around Sensitivity and Self-Acceptance

34:46

Courtney: I think the recognition of high sensitivity also takes away some of the narratives that I think people create around some of the discomfort. Certainly our experiences can add to it, but without recognizing high sensitivity, it’s easy to go down these narratives around shame, and around why I might be taking this especially hard, relative to someone else — when, if there’s a recognition of a baseline nature of high sensitivity, then —

Andy Mort: Yeah.

Courtney: — then, you know, sometimes that can be liberating for people, of —

Andy Mort: Hmm.

Courtney: — this is just how I’m wired, and other people are as well, and I don’t need to maybe do endless work, other than figuring out how to create a life that aligns with this.

Andy Mort: Exactly. Yeah. I think that’s a really good point, ‘cause it is so easy to get sucked into knowledge hoarding, or trying to figure out why am I like this, what particular experience made this happen. Maybe it’s just the sensitivity, it’s the fact that this is all more finely attuned, closer to the surface. And that can, even in itself, especially when you’re with other highly sensitive people, become something you find humor in, and joke about, the experiences that you —

Courtney: Right.

Andy Mort: — have inside. I know that’s my sensitivity, and it doesn’t —

Courtney: Mm-hmm.

Andy Mort: — stop it from hurting, or landing in particular ways — but when you have that outlet, or that ability to share it and talk about it, or process it creatively, it just lets it settle in a different way, to holding —

Courtney: Right.

Andy Mort: — it, and feeling completely isolated in your sensitivity, thinking I’ve got no one who understands me, there’s nowhere I can turn with this, and it feels like I am flawed. And I think that’s the fundamental part of a lot of why I want people to feel — it’s not a flaw, it’s just a natural part of who you are, and how we’ve evolved as human beings. It’s a trait that works, but it doesn’t necessarily work in the systems and institutions we’ve created over the past couple hundred years, certainly in the West, that actually make it more difficult to be sensitive. And how’s that working out for us? How’s it working out for us, to have these systems that just dismiss sensitivity, and the highly sensitive people within the institutions and organizations that we run? I don’t think it’s going all that well, but I don’t know.

The Importance of Community and Support for Sensitive Individuals

39:57

Courtney: Right. It makes me think about a conversation we had recently, about there actually can be, or is, a role for the highly sensitive person within a group dynamic, as opposed to not fitting in — if that’s honored by the person. I don’t know that it has to be honored by the group, but there’s an important role to be had, to be potentially the person in the group who’s able to see what’s happening, tuned in to the energies of the people in the group, in a way that other people without high sensitivity — that wouldn’t be a strength they’d bring to the group, they’d bring other strengths. And I say that as someone who had a terrible time speaking up, even though I had a lot of thoughts and ideas, in group settings. And to just sort of make that shift — it’s not just that it’s okay, but that there’s actually a role, in the bigger natural order of things, for highly sensitive people, even in the context of groups. Without making it sound like it’s on them to be up against a system that’s not necessarily built for them.

Andy Mort: Yeah, I think that’s absolutely right. It’s not on the highly sensitive person to speak up — it’s recognizing that sort of collective, the melting pot of all the different things that make us an effective social species. It’s not a competition between the sensitive and the less sensitive. It’s great that we have people who are less sensitive. One of the mechanisms in a lot of highly sensitive people is this pause to check — we’re more likely, before taking action, to just take a moment to pause, to assess the environment, to check for signs of safety and threat. It can take us longer to move into a new situation. And the less sensitive person may just go full-on into that situation and figure it out once they jump in. There could be anything in there, there could be sharks in there. And —

Courtney: Right.

Andy Mort: — actually, having all of that is really useful. It’s more on the environments and the systems to understand the importance of sensitivity, than it is for sensitive people to push themselves into those situations, ‘cause if that’s how we’re going to do it, it will never happen. Coming back to that differential susceptibility piece — sometimes the conversation moves into accommodations for highly sensitive people, changing the organization so it’s a nicer place for them to be —

Courtney: Mm-hmm.

Andy Mort: — in. It’s more than that — it’s creating a place that actually allows people of all levels of sensitivity to explore their potential, and to be the best that they can possibly be. We’re restricting our potential as humans if we’re not making places conducive for people on all areas of that continuum. That mindset of “we should include everyone” — I think that’s missing the point, because —

Courtney: Right.

Andy Mort: — we’re just failing ourselves if we’re not seeing the importance of sensitivity. And when we look around the world right now, we’re sorely missing some elements of what could help us as a species, and what could have helped us prepare for and avoid certain things that have come to pass over time.

The Concept of Gentle Rebellion and Aligning With One’s Nature

45:06

Courtney: My daughter, who’s twenty-one, is highly sensitive, and really interested in leadership. She wanted me to ask you about highly sensitive people in leadership roles. I think people might naturally think you have to have a certain temperament — I’m curious your thoughts there, not just on people having the opportunity to speak up and be heard and create, but to lead.

Andy Mort: Yeah, the more highly sensitive leaders we can have, the better. Maybe encourage your daughter to find role models — other people who appear to be sensitive leaders — and notice what they do differently. Is there a difference in the way that a highly sensitive person leads?

Courtney: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Andy Mort: In my experience, I’ve probably seen more of a collaborative approach, a filling in — not being completely egocentric in the leadership. There’s been this trend — I remember, maybe twenty years ago, it felt like we were moving towards more relational, more empathetic models of leadership. And then it just got sideswiped, and we got —

Courtney: Mm-hmm.

Andy Mort: — the sort of, yeah, the ultra —

Courtney: Hierarchy.

Andy Mort: — yeah. The person at the top, it all being about this single figure —

Courtney: Mm.

Andy Mort: — maybe that sort of Steve Jobs role, you’ve got the figurehead of the organization, and everyone’s aspiring to get to that position. But when I’ve seen effective leadership done by more sensitive people, it’s recognizing — okay, I have these weaknesses, I know where my strengths lie, and I want to bring everyone with me. This is a collective endeavor, leading a cause with a central purpose, vision, and mission — and how can we most effectively serve that, rather than how can I most effectively harness as much power as possible, which seems to be the question on the minds of a lot of leaders today. It’s an interesting question, how you operate within systems that have rewarded the egotistical leader, and whether you end up reshaped from your sensitivity into that, either to get into the position, or once you’re there.

Courtney: Right.

Andy Mort: Something to be aware of. Yeah, I don’t know.

Courtney: Right. Which — sort of the cost of not honoring our nature, whatever that nature is — I’d imagine people are more likely to get burned out, to not enjoy their work.

Andy Mort: Yeah, that’s definitely a whole other part of it — if you’re trying to squeeze yourself into the way people do these roles. That’s one of the issues, going back to what we were talking about with rest as rebellion, self-care as an act of rebellion. It’s really difficult, especially at a time when people are facing real uncertainty and financial precariousness, and all of that makes hustling, being on all the time, trying to make a living any way you can, feel like a life-or-death thing in a lot of situations. And we have the online world, which doesn’t switch off. There’s nothing telling us to stop, other than the moment your body breaks and you hit burnout, and by then it’s too late. I don’t know what the answer is to that, because I feel that pressure at times, like, I should be doing more, I can’t just sit here and rest —

Courtney: Right.

Andy Mort: — I could be making social media posts, trying to make a living.

Courtney: People listening may struggle with brain symptoms or chronic health issues, and for many people that can take them off the path of hustle culture and busyness, by necessity, because they just can’t do what they used to do. I’m thinking, some of gentle rebellion, or honoring our nature, can be a whole lifestyle shift. When I got sick with chronic illness and had mold toxicity, it almost gave me permission — even though I had all the health issues going on — it gave me permission, in a way, to say no to social obligations, to get rid of a lot of things, and, because of the purging with mold toxicity, to really drill down into a simplicity of life I wouldn’t have chosen otherwise.

Andy Mort: So, like an enforced —

Courtney: Like it sort of —

Andy Mort: — permission. Yeah. People often talk about wake-up calls, don’t they — like when someone has a heart attack, realizes they’ve been working themselves into the ground, and changes their life from there. But this has a — maybe a gentler tone to it, because it’s almost an invitation to align —

Courtney: Yeah. Right.

Andy Mort: — with your nature, to come into rhythm with who you are, and align with it more. Rhythms — that’s a word we’ve used a few times before — the importance of that —

Courtney: Right.

Andy Mort: — like the seasons. We’re sort of in a post-seasonal age, when it comes to the things that used to happen traditionally through the year — this is the time for this, and then the season changes, and you put that down, and the next thing happens. Instead there’s this constant pressure to be doing everything, all the time. But if you have that enforced permission, it’s almost like you can relax into — my body literally can’t do what I’m telling myself I ought to do, or have been told I ought to do. It just can’t. So now I’ve got to make some decisions about what actually matters, and how I want to approach things.

Closing Thoughts on Sensitivity, Creativity, and Leadership

49:45

Courtney: But I feel like your term, “gentle rebel,” just resonates and sinks in as that kind of permission — it’s very grounding.

Andy Mort: That’s nice to hear. And I hope it’s an invitation to bring your own story into it, rather than — what do I need to do in order to be a gentle rebel. It’s not an identity in that sense — there isn’t a set of characteristics to tick off. It’s kind of counter to that, in many ways.

Courtney: No, no. Thank you so much — there’s so much I’d like to talk to you about.

Andy Mort: Maybe we’ll do it again. I love talking about this stuff.

Courtney: Likewise.

Andy Mort: I could talk about it all day.

Courtney: Great. Thank you, I really appreciate it.

Andy Mort: Absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Where to find Andy Mort:

* 🔗 Website: andymort.com

* 🏡 The Haven (his coaching community for gentle rebels): the-haven.co

* 🎧 The Gentle Rebel Podcast on Apple Podcasts: listen here

* 📺 The Gentle Rebel Podcast on YouTube: watch here

Medical Disclaimer: This newsletter is for educational purposes only and is not intended or implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Consult your own physician for any medical issues you may be having.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit courtneysnydermd.substack.com/subscribe