S2-Ep1 - Tips And Take-aways For Being Trauma Informed

Angela Eisenberg:

Hello, welcome back to I've Tried Everything, a podcast focusing on behavior supports in schools. I'm your host, Angela Eisenberg, project coordinator at Region 13. Every week I talk with educators just like you. We cover some tough topics, share stories, and explore what works and what doesn't. Let's go.

I am very excited to be joined by my colleague, Monica Kurtz. Monica, you have a wealth of knowledge around behavior and your experiences, either in the classroom, behavior classrooms, or supporting campuses, districts in the world of behavior.

What is your underlying passion for behavior support?

Monica Kurtz:

I really, really love thinking about behavior. I think about my own behavior. I think about your behavior. I think about everyone's behavior. And I like studying it. I like to understand why people act the way that they do.

And so I feel like, when I can help a student or I can help a teacher help a student get ahold of their behavior, create more positive behavior habits in their lives, I feel like I'm contributing to their lifelong success. Which is awesome. It's really, really, really, really awesome.

Other academic content areas are also important, Sure. Math, everybody needs math. But if you don't have the skills to be able to be productive in a classroom, then you're not getting the math. You're not getting the ELA or whatever it is until you can manage yourself in that environment.

But the other thing that behavior does is allow us to be full participants in relationships with the people in our world, and not just a relationship with your significant other. We have relationships with everyone that we come in contact with, even if only lasts five minutes in the HEB line. I still have a relationship with this person.

So the more that I understand my behavior, the more self-aware I am about how I'm doing during the day, the things that are impacting me on this day versus the day before or the day after, the more productive and healthy and beneficial the relationships that I engage in can be.

Angela Eisenberg:

I know one of your areas of interest with behavior is trauma. So talk to me about how your learning and excitement began with how trauma has affected behavior.

Monica Kurtz:

I came from a strong program. I spent 15 years at this school for the deaf, supporting students who had an auditory impairment, but also additional issues going on around being, ID or any myriad of things. And we had a really successful behavior program going. We had a lot of admin support teachers, paras, super well trained. We had a very, very strong program.

And there came a day when we got a student from another country, like an orphanage or something, whose behavior was so different. It was so different, and it was so challenging for us. The things that we had used with other students for so long had no impact on this child. And that really was one of the first things that got me interested in how our background impacts how we behave.

And then, almost at the same time, I came here to the service center. I was part of the behavior support staff network that Albert Phelps ran at the time. And in that same time period he talked about ACEs, adverse childhood experiences. And we watched the movie Paper Tigers. And I can remember body memory when he brought up the slide of Adverse Childhood Experiences. There are 10 things on that list, and I could identify with eight of them.

Angela Eisenberg:

Oh, wow.

Monica Kurtz:

And I thought, oh my God, this is me. This is me on a piece of paper. This is me. And, wow. And so then I started reading and doing research on early childhood trauma specifically. And so it was both personal and professional simultaneously. The more I understand early childhood trauma, the more I understand myself. And the more I understand early childhood trauma, the greater my empathy for other people who are also struggling.

And we know from research that early childhood trauma is so prevalent, right? 67 to 70% of people that you interact with have had some kind of thing that they're dealing with from their childhood, or they are living it now. So that's where it started. Understanding how I behave, how I am impacted by my own trauma, and then extending that out and helping people understand.

This classroom behavior is not all about hating the teacher or hating the subject. There is a deeper reason for this behavior. And until we address that deeper reason, we're not going to be able to do anything.

Angela Eisenberg:

I have had the privilege of being a part of several of your trainings around trauma and behavior. And you have a really interesting slide that you developed, where it pairs the multi-tiered system of support tiers to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. How did that visual kind of manifest for you, and how do you explain the importance of the tears versus Maslow?

Monica Kurtz:

I know just the picture you're talking about. Again, like I said before, I really love thinking about behavior. I spend an inordinate amount of time, and I know the very base of Maslow is like those basic human needs, and then there's safety and security above that.

And when I think about our tier three students, which is by the way, the only students I really work with. Some tier two, but mostly tier three. And don't even ask me about tier one. I have no idea.

When I think about the needs of the students that I work with specifically, if you imagine that pyramid sitting right next to Maslow, so you've got two pyramids side by side. If you take the RTI pyramid and you rotate it, so the tip is on the bottom, then your tier three students line up with your basic human needs, and your security and safety.

And I feel like that illustrates, really, where those students are. We cannot, as people, experience success and all of the things that come with being in a healthy relationship with achievement. We can't experience those until we are in an environment where we feel safe and secure. And that safety and security comes from, at the very most basic, meeting our needs. Making sure we have food and water and shelter. Then we can start to feel safe in the world.

And the more that I interact with students who are on the very tip of that tiered pyramid, the more that I understand that something is missing from the very basic bottom of the Maslow's hierarchy. A lot of the students that I work with have emotional disturbance. That kind of lends itself to insecurity. So we have to figure out ways to make sure that those first two levels of Maslow, ways that we can help our students have those before they're able to reach a level of achievement.

Angela Eisenberg:

I think about that, and I thought about that whenever I was dealing with the situation with my daughter, Grace. She was at the time going into her senior year. It was the very beginning of school.

Unfortunately, her schedule was not right. She was supposed to be in this one class first period, ended up in a completely different class that had certain number of computers and that sort of thing. So when she got in there, the first question out of the teacher's mind is, what are you doing in here? Why are you here? I only have this many computers. You need to find a way to get out.

She was like, I don't know. They told me to go follow my schedule. And so she went through the schedule change process, she put that in. And first days of school, first several weeks of school at a high school, you're just trying to make sure everybody has classes, right? So she wasn't a top priority.

But every day she walked in, first period of the day, why are you still here? You need to get out. Just kind of barraged of you're not welcome. It ended up Grace was like, "Mom, I don't even want to go to school. I don't know what to do. I feel so hated by this teacher because the schedule was wrong and it's not my fault."

So I ended up, me being the parent that I am, I email the counselor. And I email their academic dean and say, "Grace has trauma. She has several indicators from that adverse childhood experiences." And I said, "Grace is sitting with a couple of trauma components." But I said, we've really worked on resiliency with her. I'm guessing that there are other kids in the classroom that might not have that level. And they're being so unwelcomed when they come in, and that's that safety and security.

And I said, so if she's experiencing this, how might those other kids feel that are also experiencing that, and could have more ACEs than Grace does? And I mean, of course, as soon as this campus found out this was happening, they got that schedule changed. But that shouldn't have to take place.

Monica Kurtz:

No, it shouldn't. It should be incumbent upon all of us to behave like decent human beings. And, sorry, but I'm a little bit fired up for Grace now. Being the person that I am, I understand that teacher's level of stress on the first day of school or the first week of school, I get it. However, there's no call to be ugly to another person. Not a student, not a child, not a whatever. To another person, another human being in your environment. There is no need. There is no need.

And what an unwelcoming environment. So when we talk about basic human needs, that safety and security was completely missing from Grace's first period experience. And if you're going to get all head up about something, let's talk to the people who make the schedules.

Angela Eisenberg:

So I live by the idea that if you knew better, you'd do better for sure. I don't think that teacher had an evil plan to thwart anybody. I think if she knew better, she'd do better. Let's put that lay person to the test.

If you could go out there to any new teacher in the profession, or a teacher in the profession that didn't understand trauma and how trauma impacts student behavior, what would be some of the tools that you would recommend to be trauma-informed?

Monica Kurtz:

The single greatest powerful tool that we have, that we can offer our students, is the gift of a healthy relationship. I can't stress how important having just one healthy relationship is in the life of a child. And I'm at an age where I mean anybody under the age of 18. But when we talk about early childhood trauma, we are talking up to the age of 18, and that has to do with brain development. So when I say child, I still mean high schooler, right?

So, a healthy relationship. Everybody, everybody needs somebody who thinks they can do no wrong. When I think about it in terms of my own family, I'm that aunt. My nieces and nephews are perfect.

Angela Eisenberg:

Of course they are.

Monica Kurtz:

They are perfect. They are perfect in a way that I know inside is probably unrealistic. Because no one's perfect. However, I'm that person in their lives. I'm the person who thinks everything you do, every piece of artwork, every school play, every STEM rocket that you build, I think all of those things are the most wonderful things that have ever happened on the planet.

I'm not here to be their disciplinarians, much to their mother's chagrin. I think they're amazing, and everybody needs somebody like that in their lives. And so that's the first step, is creating a healthy relationship. The thing though, about the student who most needs that healthy relationship is that they are the hardest ones to create relationship with. Because they don't have any skills. Because their idea of what a healthy relationship is comes from a place of chaos and trauma.

So as the adult in this situation, if I see that there's something going on with young Angela and I want to create or begin the foundations of a relationship, I'm the one who has to keep on going back. Because even though that student, subconsciously they know that they need this relationship as much as they need their next breath, they have no idea how to get it. They have no idea how to hold onto it.

We talk about a lot on the behavior team about how desire urges me on and fear bridles me, from one of our favorite books. That's the same thing that your student from trauma is going through. They want a relationship with you as a healthy adult. They're also terrified of it. I think that's really, really important for grownups to recognize.

And if you think about it, if you have your own trauma history, you probably know what that feels like. I want to have this healthy relationship with whomever, and I don't know how to get it. I am behaving in a way that is sort of self-sabotaging this relationship. So for our students, we are the ones who have to go back again and again and again to make those overtures, to build that healthy relationship.

Angela Eisenberg:

You said something profound when we were talking about relationships. You said when a student comes up to you and they don't know who you are, but all of a sudden they want to hug you, or sit on your lap, or be your best friend, that's not normal.

Monica Kurtz:

Right, right.

Angela Eisenberg:

That's not a normal behavior. My children don't just run up to strangers and go, oh my gosh, you're like the bestie. And let's, all of a sudden I want to hold your hand or give me a hug kind of thing. I can remember talking to my own children about, you don't have to give everybody a hug. I didn't force them to even give family members a hug if they didn't want to give a hug. Again, that's not a normal behavior. So could that be a trauma response?

Monica Kurtz:

So I don't want to say unequivocally that is not healthy, because certainly some children are friendlier than others. And that is totally fine. We are all different.

However, it always raises a red flag in me when I as a stranger walk into a classroom and a student is running up, wants to engage right away, can't stop looking at me, wants me involved in all of the things that they're doing. This is a red flag. Because while I am super cool, you don't know me. There should be a level of skepticism that is natural.

Angela Eisenberg:

Like stranger danger, stranger danger.

Monica Kurtz:

Right. But it almost feels like that the student who does that is trying to sort of reverse or negate a potentially negative experience. A stranger is in the classroom. So in order to make sure that that stranger is safe, I'm going to ingratiate myself. I am going to be as cute as possible, and this is all subconscious. I'm going to be as loving as possible. I'm going to be as friendly as possible, so that I know that that person doesn't present a threat.

So again, if I go into a classroom ... And the other thing is, I do have blue hair. So I am really, really popular, particularly in elementary school because I've got blue hair. And everybody in second grade would like to have blue hair. It's fine. But there'll be somebody who wants to immediately crawl in my lap and snuggle.

And yeah, I'm totally trustworthy, but they don't know that. And they are acting in a way that is very unsafe.

Angela Eisenberg:

How does predictability, consistency play a role in being trauma informed?

Monica Kurtz:

Gosh. So I'm just going to say this for the people in the back. Everybody, everybody, whether you have trauma or not, all of us crave predictability and consistency. And if you want to argue, show me your iPhone, show me your Android that doesn't have a scheduling app. Show me your outlook. My entire month is scheduled to within an inch of my life because I want to know what's happening to me.

When we create an environment with consistency and predictability, we are creating a safe environment. Where everyone knows the expectations, everybody knows how to be successful, and everybody knows when you are on the edge of not being successful, if you get what I mean.

For our students who are dealing with trauma, who are coming from chaos, surprises and lack of consistency are scary. If there's so much in your world that is undependable, that is inconsistent, that is here today gone tomorrow, whether it's a parent or a guardian, whether it is shelter that is on this couch or that couch, whether it is if there's going to be dinner or not, that level of inconsistency is scary.

So in our classrooms, if we can create a predictable, consistent environment, we will be helping our students begin to regulate their nervous systems.

Angela Eisenberg:

You have also talked in some of your trainings about how behavior manifests with trauma in correlation to how behavior manifests with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD.

So how sometimes might we mistake something as being an ADHD behavior when it could potentially be ... Now, I mean obviously we're not doctors.

Monica Kurtz:

Right.

Angela Eisenberg:

But how might some of those behaviors manifest and make us think it's one over the other?

Monica Kurtz:

Again, not a doctor, can't do anything about it. But I recognize it when I see it kind of thing. And oftentimes students who have dealt with trauma are ADHD. A lot of times they are co-occurring. This is what keeps me up at night. Remember I said I think entirely too much about behavior.

If I'm working with a student who is presenting what looks like to me, ADHD, but really the problem is trauma. If that student goes to the doctor and the doctor gives them some kind of medication for ADHD, that's cool. But if the root of the problem is trauma, and we're not addressing that sort of societally, I'm not a social worker, I'm a teacher. Got it.

But if as a society we are not acknowledging that Risperdal or whatever you use to treat ADHD is great, unless the problem is I'm hungry. If the problem is I don't have a bed, or I don't have a consistent way to be taken care of, or I don't have a consistent caregiver, or I am being abused in any way, then ADHD medication's not going to make a difference to get to the root of the problem.

And I say this with hesitation, because I don't want people in schools to think that they're responsible for every single thing. I feel like educators and schools have way too much responsibility for what should be societal. But in the absence we are leaning on schools a great deal. So I think it's just something to be mindful of.

Angela Eisenberg:

Yeah, I always talk to educators, especially teachers around, we can't control student behavior, right?

Monica Kurtz:

Right.

Angela Eisenberg:

We have the power to control our environment, which goes back to that consistency, that predictability. Those things I have the power to control. I know that every day students enter the classroom this certain way. I pick up papers this way, I put things in Google Classroom. It's a level of predictability and consistency.

Monica Kurtz:

Some simple things that we can do in classrooms. Teachers like to wander. I know I'm a big believer in wandering around the classroom during instruction. Because wandering keeps people on their toes. Proximity is a really great classroom management tool.

But for your students, again, coming from trauma, living in chaos, that wander can be terrifying. The unknown, or being approached from behind even for example. And so it could be as simple as, because I don't want you to stop wandering. But it could be as simple as, everyone start on problem number one. I'm going to walk around and make sure everybody's doing okay.

Angela Eisenberg:

So that knowing what they're doing in the classroom.

Monica Kurtz:

Knowing what's happening. Why are you walking around like that? I would be wary of personal touch, right? So even a tap on the shoulder can be terrifying. So you need to be really, really judicious with the way that you are interacting with your students.

If you want to pat them on the shoulder, that they know that that's going to happen. I always ask, is it okay if I tap your shoulder this way to get your attention? So that there's some expectation that that might happen.

I also would encourage teachers and all school staff to find ways for your students to experience success. A lot of times we think about in schools, success is academic. And maybe that's not going to be possible right now, but everybody needs to be good at something. And so I like to think of our jobs in part as being mirrors, of reflecting back the goodness inside the student right back at them, and helping them find some level of success.

Because again, if you're working with students who are experiencing hardship outside your classroom, they don't need you to point out their failings. I promise you, somebody else in the world's already doing that. I promise. So you can take that off your plate. Take that right off your plate. It would be far more beneficial for your student, for you to spend that same amount of time finding the positive thing.

If it's greeting people at the door, if it is doing school announcements, if it is at a younger level, if it's the person who passes out the pencil, something where a student can experience success. Because the rest of the world is already telling them how epically bad they are, we don't also need to do that.

Angela Eisenberg:

So very true. If I wanted to learn more about trauma, what are some things, resources that you would point people in the direction to?

Monica Kurtz:

Wow, there's a lot I like to read about trauma and some of my go-tos are Dr. Bessel van der Kolk. He wrote The Body Keeps The Score back in like 2015, 2016. It's still a really relevant piece of work.

Anything by Heather Forbes. So Bessel van der Kolk writes from a more medical perspective about trauma, where Heather Forbes writes about it in the schoolhouse. How to promote resiliency in the Schoolhouse. So her work is really good.

A book that's not too old by Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey is called, What Happened To You? And that is an amazing conversation. So good.

But there's also websites you can go to. So there's the National Childhood Traumatic Stress Network. You could go to the Castle Network, the Collaborative for Academic and Social Emotional Learning. They have some really great resources. Edutopia has some really great stuff on trauma. Harvard University also has some really great stuff on trauma, if that's your thing.

Angela Eisenberg:

Wow. Sounds like there's a lot of resources out there. But knowing too, people could within Region 13 or even outside of Region 13, can always pick up the phone or shoot you an email and say, hey, help me out with trauma.

Monica Kurtz:

Oh, yeah.

Angela Eisenberg:

So thank you Monica. I really appreciate you being with me today for I've Tried Everything. Because sometimes when you're dealing with trauma, you've tried everything.

Monica Kurtz:

Yeah, yeah.

Angela Eisenberg:

You have to keep going back to it. So I really appreciate you being my guest today.

Monica Kurtz:

Absolutely.

Angela Eisenberg:

I can't wait to have you back.

Monica Kurtz:

Thanks for having me.

Angela Eisenberg:

Thanks for listening to, I've tried Everything. Join me next week as we continue on our journey for behavior supports in schools. Remember to subscribe, and you can always find great resources at Region 13's website, just search behavior. Talk to you next time.