We like to think we choose what matters. But what if the goals we’re chasing… aren’t actually ours?
Episode Summary My guest on this episode is Dr. C. Thi Nguyen, philosopher and author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else’s Game, a book about how metrics, scoring systems, and “games” shape our behaviour—often without us realising it. Thi explains how his work on games led him to a deeper question: why do scoring systems make games feel meaningful, but make real life feel distorted? The answer lies in how metrics redefine success—quietly shifting us from what we care about to what we can measure.
In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore the idea of “value capture”, why institutions rely on simplified proxies, and how the very features that make metrics useful also make them dangerous. We also discuss expertise, transparency, gamification, and why removing metrics altogether doesn’t solve the problem. This is a conversation about control: who sets the rules, who keeps score, and what happens when we stop questioning the game we’re playing.
Guest Bio Dr. C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work explores how games, metrics, and social systems shape human behaviour and values. A professor of philosophy at the University of Utah, his research sits at the intersection of ethics, decision-making, and the philosophy of agency, with a particular focus on how the structures around us influence what we care about and how we act.
Alongside his academic work, Thi is also a keen gamer, rock climber, and cook; interests that inform his thinking about play, challenge, and the richness of human experience beyond what can be easily measured.
AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – Introduction: games, metrics, and meaning 03:00 – How Thi came to study games and philosophy 07:00 – What games are (and why they matter) 10:00 – Achievement vs striving play 13:00 – Cheating and misunderstanding the point of games 16:00 – Games, struggle, and meaningful activity 18:00 – Cooking, recipes, and rules 22:00 – Metrics as simplified rule systems 25:00 – Value capture and how metrics reshape goals 29:00 – Why institutions rely on measurement 32:00 – Quantification and loss of context 36:00 – Rules, algorithms, and expertise 40:00 – Standardisation and the cost of consistency 43:00 – Transparency, trust, and unintended consequences 47:00 – Metrics and the loss of expert judgment 50:00 – Ungrading and the limits of removing metrics 54:00 – Designing better scoring systems 58:00 – Gamification and why it misses the point 01:02:00 – Choosing your own game 01:06:00 – Final reflections and closing
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