DEBATE: Did Zionism Steal Judaism? | Joshua and Amalek | The Jewish God | Animals and Morality

In round two with Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro, the conversation expands far beyond politics into morality, theology, identity, and the strange psychological world created by modern Zionism. We explore the deep divide between Judaism as a religious covenant and Zionism as a nationalist political project, asking whether the modern state of Israel fundamentally transformed — or even replaced — Judaism for millions of Jews in the diaspora. Along the way we discuss figures like Benjamin Netanyahu and Itamar Ben-Gvir, the rise of religious nationalism in Israel, and why some Orthodox rabbis see Zionism not as the fulfillment of Judaism but as a revolt against it.The discussion also turns surprisingly personal and philosophical. We debate veganism, eating animals, moral obligation, atheism, divine command theory, and whether morality comes from God, reason, empathy, or something deeper built into consciousness itself. Rabbi Shapiro lays out the highly legal and covenantal logic of traditional Judaism, while I push from a humanist and philosophical perspective shaped more by moral intuition and existential questions than religious law. What follows is not a hostile debate but a genuinely curious and wide-ranging exchange about free will, suffering, identity, tradition, and the uncomfortable contradictions many modern Jews feel when trying to separate Judaism from Israel.We also get into antisemitism, pro-Palestine activism, Holocaust memory, diaspora identity, and the growing confusion around what words like “Jew,” “Zionist,” and “anti-Zionist” even mean anymore. Can someone reject Zionism without rejecting Jews? Did Zionism “steal” Judaism and redefine Jewish identity around nationalism and the state? Why do so many secular Jews feel trapped inside an identity they no longer religiously believe in? And what happens when a centuries-old spiritual tradition becomes fused to military power and ethnic politics? It’s a dense, funny, provocative, and deeply philosophical conversation that moves from Talmudic reasoning to modern propaganda, from theology to vegan ethics, and from suburban American Judaism to the crisis unfolding in Israel and Palestine today.For more from Jay visit whatjaythinks.com 00:00:00 Coming Up…00:01:43 Roadmap To the Conversation00:05:28 A Strange Debate About Veganism and the Jewish God00:07:53 Golda Meir’s Masada Complex00:13:25 Dear Palestine, on Jewish Pacifism and the IDF00:18:35 Amalek and Canaan00:25:40 Interpretation of Texts00:29:06 How Flexible are the Texts00:37:41 How Popular Are His Views? Can You Tell By Looking?00:47:00 The Zionists Have A Country, What Do We Have?00:53:49 The Illusion of Zionism00:59:12 Real Jews and Rabbi Shach01:03:31 Palestine or Zionism? The Moral Character of the Jewish God01:09:59 1967 and The Diaspora Jew01:13:53 Jonathan Pollard and the Diaspora Jew01:21:11 DEBATE: Is Judaism Pacifist?01:28:02 David Hume, the Is-Ought Problem, and the Uncaused Cause01:34:07 God, Perfection, and Free Will01:41:03 Child Drowning in a Shallow Pond01:47:33 Humanism, Veganism, and Human Access to the Oughts01:54:40 If the Theology is Right The Slaughterhouse Disgust is a misguided Feeling01:58:08 Rabbi’s Daughter Stopped Eating Chicken02:01:13 Feelings Versus Theology And the God Question02:06:43 Why Is There Something… Moral? And Literal Torah02:13:13 Why Does This Moral Grounding Difference Matter?02:17:26 Rabbi Calls Me Authoritarian02:18:16 Rabbi Choses Veganism All Things Being Equal02:25:07 Rabbi’s 51st State Solution Actually Ends Yaakov’s Problem02:27:53 Alex Hershaft Holocaust Survivor Turned Animal Rights Activist02:29:14 OUTRO Moral Philosophy Response - Steel manning God02:33:53 What Humanism Actually Means02:39:30 Strange Bedfellows Against Zionism