The top two traits for new agency hires

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Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: You know, Gini, we have a problem today with this recording, and I’m curious as to how we’re going to solve it.

Gini Dietrich: Oh, boy.

I live, I live for your intros ’cause I never know what they are. They’re always really bad. You come up with them on the literal fly.

Chip Griffin: On the fly as I watch that five, four, three, two, one on the screen … I dream something up, which is, uh… I mean, that’s more thought than we sometimes give to what we’re gonna do for an episode.

Although we have- at some point we’ll talk about our new system for this, because we have-

Gini Dietrich: We do have a new system, and it’s very good …

Chip Griffin: it, it is-

Gini Dietrich: It’s very, it’s very good. Thanks to you.

Chip Griffin: You know, thanks to me with a little, little assist from Claude, so,

Gini Dietrich: It’s very good …

Chip Griffin: but we’ll talk more about that in a future episode.

But no, today, normally we, to record this episode, or each episode, we get together, we kibitz for a bit and talk about the world, and then we end up recording as soon as we look at the clock and say, “Oh my God, we’re about to run out of time- Right. … to actually record something before our next meeting.”

Gini Dietrich: Yes.

Chip Griffin: Um, because really, this show is just an excuse for us to have social hour. I mean, let’s, let’s be honest. That’s-

Gini Dietrich: Right, yes …

Chip Griffin: we happen to end up with content out of it. But today-

Gini Dietrich: We do happen to end up with content because of it,

Chip Griffin: but today it turns out you’re getting a grocery delivery right in the middle of when we would normally be having that panicked conversation about how we’re gonna record in time.

Gini Dietrich: Correct, yes.

Chip Griffin: So-

Gini Dietrich: There, there was a-

Chip Griffin: We’re flipping the script as they like to say …

Gini Dietrich: that was like an hour early, so-

Chip Griffin: Yes … Yes. But-

Gini Dietrich: Although right now it says five stops away even though it’s only four block- … the, the GPS shows they’re only four blocks away, so maybe it’s five stops in between four blocks of-

Chip Griffin: So, so basically, if all of a sudden Gini disappears in the middle of this episode-

Gini Dietrich: You’ll know why

Chip Griffin: you’ll know why. It’s because she didn’t want her milk to spoil, so. Anyway- … we’ll do our best to muddle through as we always do, but we are gonna be talking about curiosity and problem-solving, because I firmly believe that those are the two qualities that agencies should be hiring for first and foremost, not worrying so much about what experience do they have working with the particular industry that you serve, or even their specific technical capabilities for whatever role they may have.

Because a lot of those things can be taught, but curiosity and problem-solving in my experience are things that most people either have or they don’t. And they can, they can perfect it, they can improve it, but starting with a clean slate there is gonna be much tougher than teaching someone how to write a press release or teaching someone about the industry that you’re primarily working with.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s, it’s the things, like when you think about the type of people that you want on your team and the things that you can teach versus the things that kind of come innately, and I think you’re right, curiosity and problem-solving are the, the critical thinking skills are the things that you can’t really teach.

You, they, people have to come with those. They either have it or they don’t. You can teach how to write a release, how to use AI, how to pitch to media, how to write content, how to do Google Ads or social media ads. Like, you can teach those. Those are skills you can teach. The innate sort of curiosity and wanting to know more, like that’s, that can’t be taught.

That’s, that’s just something that people either come with or they don’t.

Chip Griffin: And, and curiosity is taking on increasing importance in the age of AI-

Gini Dietrich: I think so, yeah

Chip Griffin:… because things, things are changing so quickly and so we need to be not just creative, but we need to understand, you know, how to take advantage of all of the tools that we have, how the audience behavior is shifting right under our feet, and all of those things benefit from curiosity.

But I think as we look at problem-solving, I mean, that’s fundamentally agency-client relationships are about just a continuous cycle of problem-solving.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

Chip Griffin: Right? I mean, you… From the problem-solving to acquire the client, to onboarding the client, to keeping the client, to dealing with team members, look, it’s all problem-solving just over and over again, and I think most agency owners, if they looked at how they spent their week, they would be spending a lot of it solving one problem or another.

And, and problems don’t necessarily have to be bad things, right? Problems can be just challenges.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah, of course.

Chip Griffin: But you, you gotta try to figure out how to surmount whatever is in front of you.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, I think, I think a good way to think about this, especially for agency owners, is when you think about the work that you do with clients, which kinds of clients are really fun to work with, and which ones kind of make you wanna poke your eyeballs out?

For instance, we have a client who, their chief communications officer is so incredibly curious that he’s constantly… He– like, he and I are always like brr, to the point where our teams are all like, “What’s happening here?” But be- but he’s- he and I are at the same curiosity level where we’re constantly asking questions, and for me, it’s so fun to work with him.

It’s so fun. Every time I get an email from him or he texts me and he wants to call, I’m like, “Yes,” because I know we’re gonna have a really good conversation, versus the clients who are like, “I don’t understand why we would use social media for the business when, you know, social media is for the kids,” even though it’s been 15 years, right?

It’s the, like the, the kinds of… It’s a different kind of working relationship. And those are the people you want on your team, the ones that are curious and ask lots of questions and want to understand and want to grow and want the professional development to be able to do that. That’s who you want on your team.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, it makes all the difference in the results that you’re producing for your firm and also for the clients because if all you do is show up and do the exact same thing day in and day out and you don’t bother to learn and you’re not curious about, you know, how can you continue to improve what you’re producing, I mean, you’re right, it’s boring- Yeah

and it doesn’t produce good results. So you’ve got… You know, you’re oh for two. And so you need to be better at that.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. It’s funny, you know, there, there’s a common generalization, I would say, about baby boomers, and that baby boomers are not curious. And you find this– I think you find this with your parents, where they don’t ask a lot of questions.

They tend to be more invested. It feels like they’re more invested in the neighbors or the people they go to church with than in their children and grandchildren. And I started to, started to see this a little bit, and I think it’s just as a generation, and it’s, it’s a generalization, like it’s a gross one, right?

But as a generation, because they were taught that children are to be seen and not heard, they’ve never really learned how to ask questions or be really curious. And because of that, I think our generation and our kids’ generation, They’re, they’re seeing that come into play where they aren’t curious about what our lives and about their, their grandchildren’s lives.

And so when you think about that from a personal perspective, you’re like, “Why aren’t you curious?” Right. Now extrapolate that to work, right? The same kind of thing. Like, why wouldn’t you want to work with people who have curiosity and who have the ability to problem solve, so who have critical thinking skills?

Because those are the things that, to your point, are gonna help you excel for your clients faster than anything else.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I think, I mean, it, you know, I think that curiosity is not necessarily a generational thing. I know plenty of folks who are at an advanced age like myself on the back nine, if you will, and-

Gini Dietrich: You’re not on the back nine yet.

Chip Griffin: I, I, mean, I’m into my 50s, so, um, I, I’m not sure I’m gonna live to be 110, so I think I’m on the back nine.

Gini Dietrich: You might. You never know.

Chip Griffin: I think very unlikely. But in any case, before we really get sidetracked here. I mean, look, there are people who are at that age who are curious. I count myself in that category.

I think I’m intensely curious about a lot of things, but I know a lot of other people who are, you know, like, “Eh, just let me show up. Let me do my job. Let me get things done. I’ll do it well, but I don’t really have any desire to, you know, to be that dog that learns a new trick at this point.” Flip side, I know plenty of young people who aren’t curious either, and, you know-

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s fair. Yeah …

Chip Griffin: and all they really wanna do is show up, collect a paycheck, and move on. And I would actually argue that for young people that’s more common today than I think it was 20 or 30 years ago.

Gini Dietrich: Do you think so?

Chip Griffin: I do. I think there’s … you know, we’ve spent a lot of time, teaching our young people about the importance of, you know, having balance in their lives and all of that, and they keep hearing this message, and I think that for some they’ve found a balance, and for some that pendulum just has swung a lot in the other direction.

And so I, I don’t wanna overgeneralize because I’m not gonna say this is true of all young people, but just in my experience it seems to be more common than I think it used to be. Although, I mean, obviously we all have- Fascinating … we all have different recollections of what things were like 30 or 40 years ago, so.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting, yeah

Chip Griffin: And I always walked uphill to school both ways, barefoot, and- Get off my lawn.

Gini Dietrich: That, that was our parents. Yes. That wasn’t us.

Chip Griffin: I walked to school, so. But anyway, so you know, so we’ve talked about the curiosity, we’ve talked a little bit about the problem-solving, but how do you test for these things when you’re interviewing?

Because it’s all well and good to say you need to hire people who are curious problem-solvers, but how do you figure that out in those- It’s so hard … two or three- Yeah, yeah … we always talk about how little time you actually have- Yeah, yeah … with prospective hires, and you have to make that decision about whether they truly are curious or whether they truly can solve problems when they pop up.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s really hard. I think part of it is, I mean, certainly you can ask scenario-based questions, right? But I think part of it is listening to the types of responses they give, but more for me, it’s the questions they ask. Mm-hmm. And so I say at the end of every interview, you know, with like 15 or 20 minutes left, “What questions do you have for me?”

And I always know if the person is curious or not based on what they say. And I would say 75% of the time people say, “Well, your team already answered all my questions.” Okay, you’re not getting hired. Yeah. Like you, you, you have the CEO sitting in front of you. Ask the same questions. See if you get the same response.

Ask what the vision is. Ask where you think we’re going. Like, be curious, and if you, you say things like that, we’re not gonna hire you because that tells me that you’re not curious. And so I think a part of it is in listening to the conversation that you’re having as well as the questions that they’ll ask.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I, I think that, that you’re absolutely right. The curiosity shows itself in the questions that come up during the interview, and I’ll be honest, I’m a lot more aggressive about this than you are because I actually, I do intros of myself… I do intro of myself and generally what we’re doing, and I ask them to give a brief intro of themself, and then I just, I stop right there and say, “So what questions do you have for me?”

Before I even ask any questions myself, just lead off-

Gini Dietrich: Smart. That’s smart … because that- I like that. Yeah …

Chip Griffin: because that, at that point it tells me, you know, what kind of, of research- Mm … they’ve done coming in. Sure. You know, how… and a lot of times the, you know, the questions may be off base, but I don’t care, right?

I want them to show something that they- Yep … that they were curious enough to have maybe done a little bit of research. They’ve got some ideas in their head- Mm-hmm … and wanted to probe, and so that really helps me. If those, if the questions are all about, “Well, how much does it pay, and what are my hours?”

Yeah. “And do I have to work weekends?” Yes. And you know, that kind of thing, then, then clearly they’re not curious. They’re just, you know, looking to punch their ticket, and I mean, that’s fine for some people. That’s not what I’m looking for.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. When I interviewed for our chief learning officer role, I, we interviewed several people, and the person that we ended up hiring, who’s fantastic, she showed up to the interview with Spin Sucks the book, and she had it, had Post-It notes in there flagged.

And so, but she, the thing about it is she didn’t… it wasn’t like blowing smoke. She said to me, “I’ve done some research. I’ve read the book. You know, I’ve done all the things. I’ve gone through the curriculum. I’ve gone through the PESO model certification. I don’t wanna call your baby ugly, so I’m gonna ask you some questions to help me understand if my hypothesis is right or not.”

And I was like, like I, I could feel myself getting a little defensive. And I was like, “Okay.” But she asked such smart, curious questions that I was like, I actually had never thought about it that way because her, she’s coming at it from an adult learning perspective, right? And I’m coming it from a, from an expertise perspective.

And so when you combine the two, you actually get a product that’s smart for the industry but also positioned in a way that adult learners learn. And the way she did it I, like, I, like I said, I could feel myself getting defensive at first, but the way she handled it and the kinds of questions she asked made me go, “Huh, I’d actually never thought about it that way.”

And so of course she got the job, and that’s how she works. She’s just super curious and delightful from that perspective. But she did say, like, “I don’t wanna call your baby ugly, so I’m gonna ask you some questions to help me understand if my hypothesis is right.” And I was like Serenity. Okay, go. But it works.

Chip Griffin: And so clearly she has more judgment than I do because I just call the baby ugly and move on. So I do it with a smile and a chuckle, but I’ll still call the baby ugly. Mm. You know, it is what it is. But yeah, I, I don’t know. Bringing the book as a prop, that feels, that feels a little extra to me, but-

Gini Dietrich: Well, she had a couple of things that she had- Yeah

that highlighted- Yeah … that she was like- Okay … “Okay, when you talked about this, I need to better understand it.” And I was like, “Well, that was 10 years ago, so things have evolved.” But we were able to talk about it so that she had… ‘Cause she’s like, “This doesn’t seem to be what you’re talking about right now.”

And I was like, “Yeah, ’cause the book was published a decade ago.”

Chip Griffin: Right. A lot has changed in the last 10 years- A lot has changed, yeah … if, if you haven’t noticed- Yeah, yeah … in everything.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. So- And actually, to be fair, she had it down below where I couldn’t see, and finally I was like, “What are you looking at?”

And so she held it up and showed me.

Chip Griffin: Yep. Yep. So, I mean, curiosity, I think the, the questions are a good reveal. I think the other one is I- I like to ask people, you know, what, what are they, you know, most interested in or most excited about professionally right now? I always make sure I add professionally.

Gini Dietrich: That’s for Gen Z.

Chip Griffin: It’s for everybody. I think I’ve shared the story before about how I had a hiring manager, a number of years ago who said to me that his favorite question was asking what people like to do on the weekends. And I’m like, “Please, please do not ask that question.

That, that opens up all sorts of- yeah, you can’t … possible HR issues.” Right. Don’t, don’t do that. Yes, stop. Don’t do that. So, so I do try to keep everybody in a professional lane so they don’t inadvertently volunteer things that would make all of us uncomfortable.

But yes, so but, so I do like to ask that because that then, you know, will tend to reveal, you know, are they, are they excited about AI or not?

Are they excited about, you know, what the, the changing trends in media consumption mean or not? And all of those things contribute to my assessment of their curiosity. And so I think curiosity’s probably the easier of the two to, to sort out in a couple of hours of time. You just, you kind of get that feel from talking to somebody.

Yeah. I think to me the problem-solving is the harder one- Yeah … to get at. And you, you mentioned earlier scenario-based questions. I, I’ll be honest, I’m not a fan of scenario-based questions.

Gini Dietrich: I’m not really either, yeah.

Chip Griffin: Because it kinda, I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re sort of putting people in a very difficult spot because at that point they don’t really know anything at all.

Yeah. And most people are gonna feel the need to perform in that, so they may not, you know- Yeah … give you their, their honest assessment. So I do think it’s tougher. I, I… Here’s where I tend to ask for examples of things that they’ve done, you know. Tell me about a, if they come from an agency background, tell me about a difficult client experience and how you handled it.

You know, tell me about, you know, some particular challenge that you had professionally and walk me through, you know, how you came back from it or those kinds of things. It’s not perfect, because a lot of times those are collaborative efforts and so maybe they’re not the one- Right.

Yeah … who actually solved the problem, they just implemented it. Yeah. But sometimes in, in the hearing, the retelling of it at least, you can sort of pick at those. But I think the, the problem-solving is really the, the tougher of the two qualities to figure out in just, you know, a couple of conversations.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I will say one of the challenges that I have is the– it’s not lack of critical thinking, but it’s finding an answer fast. And so they call– my team calls me Gini-GPT because it’s faster to ask me a question, and I’m trying to break that habit. So now I say, “What do you think? What you…”

You know? And so it forces them to, to find the answer on their own. But I– they will say, “But it’s so much easier to ask Gini GPT.” And I’m like

Chip Griffin: Right. Well, that, I mean, that’s a good point. I mean, you know, so if, if they, if they ask me a question, you know, about, you know, what I’m most interested in from the perspective of agency world or AI or whatever, I will often throw that question right back at them-

Gini Dietrich: Yeah

Chip Griffin: in the interview because that, that helps- Love that … me see some of their thought process. And it, I mean, arguably it still shows you more of the curiosity side of things, but just their thought process, even in being able to handle the volley coming right back at them as opposed to, you know, having the time to think and-

Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yep. Love that.  Love that. …

Chip Griffin: And all that, you know. Are, are they, are they able to, to work on their feet? And even my first question where I just, you know, immediately go into asking them questions, that sort of shows their general demeanor to problem-solving because almost nobody expects that- I love that

unless they happen to listen to this episode.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I’m gonna start doing that. I think that’s smart. Yep. I’m gonna start doing that. I love that.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I mean, a lot of times I, you know, there’s nothing, and sometimes it’s just because they’re, you know, they’re, you know, they may be, you know, shy or they’re just not confident or whatever, and that’s fine.

I mean, not everybody’s gonna come into that and be like, “Yes, I’ve got questions for you,” right out of the gate. So it’s not disqualifying if they don’t have them. But it’s certainly, it’s certainly a nod in their favor if they are able to come up with something on their feet. But anything you can do to kind of gently throw them off base helps you understand the problem-solving, not the old style Google, you know, “Tell me what happens when these 17 things happen,” and, or the, the crazy ones where they’re like, “If you were an animal, what, what kind of animal?”

Like, I’m like-

Gini Dietrich: What, what would your tree be if you were a tree?

Chip Griffin: Like, I don’t really want- I don’t know.

Gini Dietrich: I d- I don’t know

Chip Griffin: what that’s gonna do for me, so. Right. But you know, I mean, Google used to be famous for the incredibly difficult questions they would ask during the interview process, and I just, I really don’t have any idea what they were trying to accomplish with that.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I don’t know either. I don’t know what it tells you about the person either.

Chip Griffin: That’s performative interviewing.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think problem-solving and curiosity are two of the most important things that you can hire for, because like I said, you can teach many skills. You might be frustrated if you’re teaching, you know, a seven-year professional how to write a news release, but you can still teach it.

Chip Griffin: Yes. It can be incredibly frustrating to have to teach the basics- Yeah … to people who ought to know it.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

Chip Griffin: And this isn’t, none of this is to say that, that curiosity and problem-solving aren’t things that you can further develop. You can absolutely hone those skills, and as an owner, as a manager, you need to be encouraging people to further develop these skills.

You need to mentor them on improving their pursuit of curiosity, and their ability to solve problems. But you’ve got to start with a, a nugget of strength there, I think, in order to be successful. And I, I would tell you, if you hire for nothing else, if you hired curious problem-solvers, you will come out ahead of most other hiring individuals.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree. And not only will you come out ahead, but you really won’t have to be teaching the basics, ’cause they will already know, because they’re curious and they’re problem solvers.

Chip Griffin: Correct. And if they don’t, they’ll figure it out.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. So. That’s what you want, is people who will figure it out.

Chip Griffin: So just like we did, and we managed to get this whole episode in before your groceries arrived, so.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think they even went the wrong direction which is fantastic. They did. They’re still five stops away, but now they’re by the lake instead of by my house.

Chip Griffin: Well, what- whatever it took, I’m just- … I’m happy that we were able to record smoothly, and I’m sure that Jen is happy that she has a nice clean episode to edit, and we don’t have any-

Gini Dietrich: You’re welcome, Jen.

Chip Griffin: any weird stops in the middle. So, on that note, thank you all for listening. This draws to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends.