What is Grace-Based Parenting? It's Not What You Think with Dr. Charles Fay (Episode 303)

What is Grace-Based Parenting? It's Not What You Think with Dr. Charles Fay (Episode 303)

 

“calmness can lay great errors to rest” Ecclesiastes 10:4b Quest NIV

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Charles Fay, PhD, is an internationally recognized author, consultant, and public speaker. He is also president of the Love and Logic Institute. Millions of educators, mental health professionals, and parents worldwide have benefited from Dr. Fay's down-to-earth solutions to the most common and frustrating behaviors displayed by youth of all ages. methods come directly from years of research and clinical experience serving severely disturbed youth and their families in psychiatric hospitals, public and private schools, and homes.

Dr. Fay's interest in education and psychology were piqued by years of contact with some of our nation's most dynamic experts in these fields. This early exposure began in childhood when he participated in training events with his father, Jim Fay. Jim is one of the nation's leading experts on child discipline and has over 50 years of experience in public education. The internationally recognized Love and Logic approach was literally developed around Dr. Charles Fay as he grew. Now, he jokes, "I think that's why I became a psychologist . . . just to figure out what they were doing to me as a kid! But let me be clear . . . I absolutely adore my mom and dad as a result of these experiences."

 

Dr. Fay earned his PhD with highest honors from the University of South Carolina. Prior to and during his university training in school and clinical psychology, he enjoyed working with children in psychiatric, public school, and mental health settings. Because of his high-powered sense of humor and story-telling skills, audiences experience the most memorable and life-changing form of learning—learning that's mentally connected to joy and real-life examples.

 

Dr. Fay and his wife, Monica, reside in the mountains outside of Denver, Colorado. They have three sons who are young adults. When he isn't writing, consulting, or speaking, he enjoys snowmobiling, off-road motorcycle riding, hiking, and other active sports with his family. To learn more about Dr. Fay and the Love and Logic approach, visit loveandlogic.com.

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Will you share your story of getting some parenting advice from your eighty-three-year-old neighbor that shaped your philosophy on parenting?
2. How can we guide our kids to own their own problems and solve their own problems?
3. Will you also share some questions we can ask our children to help our kids discover their unique giftings from God and learn how to use them for the good of others?

 

Related Savvy Sauce Episodes:

74. Effective Parenting for Toddlers Through College with Wife, Mother to 8, and The Exchange Founder, Elizabeth Pehrson Part 1 

164. Inspiring Perspective in Parenting with Kay Wyma

295. Long-Game Parenting with Elizabeth Pehrson

296. Raising Future HEALTHY Adults with Elizabeth Pehrson

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:12)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:15)

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

 

I'm excited to get to welcome back to the podcast today my guest, Dr. Charles Fay. He's a psychologist and president of the Love & Logic Institute. And he's also the author of this book, Raising Spiritually Strong Kids. He's going to discuss some of these bigger theological concepts, but then practical ways that we can raise children more on the straight and narrow path. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Charles.

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (1:16 - 1:24)

Thank you so much. It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you for everybody who's joined us. We're thankful for you.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:24 - 1:38)

Well, I'd love to begin with a story. So, do you mind sharing the story of the parenting advice that you received from an 83-year-old neighbor that ended up changing your philosophy on parenting?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (1:39 - 5:39)

Yeah, well, so I grew up in the mountains of Colorado, a very rural area. I still live there, actually. But I did go to graduate school in Columbia, South Carolina, the wonderful University of South Carolina. So, I'm living in a rental house, and I had this neighbor who was 80 years old, I believe, and she was just a sweetheart. But here I'm in this process of working on my Ph.D. and studying all this research and memorizing all these things. It is like a high stress atmosphere. And we have a little son. And he's about three years of age at the time. And I remember going, I was going to be this hero. I'm going to be a good dad. I'm going to take him out to the restaurant this morning.

 

Mom's going to have a break and we're going to have some father-son time. And we get there and he's just wild and he's out of control. He's standing on the chair instead of sitting and he won't eat anything. He's making a big scene. And all these people are looking at me and I'm feeling like I have nothing. As I'm studying, I'm working on my Ph.D. in child psychology. I got nothing. So, I'm just totally humbled. I don't even remember how I handled it. I think I said something like, well, that's OK. We're going. Something like that. Like really effective. OK. Not so much. But I'm next door talking to her, man. I'm just saying, oh, you know, I just, this is not going well. And she looked at me and she said, she said, “She said, so sweet.

 

She said, oh, it's just wonderful. It's deep South. She said, oh, yeah, you got all them facts in your head. And it's just locking you up, son. It's just locking you up. And she said, God's the best dad. He's the best father. And he's loving and he's strong. That's all you have to remember. Just you follow him. He's loving and he's strong. You do that. You'll be OK. And I thanked her and I went home and I thought, “What does she know? She's not me. She's not in graduate school. And then I thought, wait a second, what do I know? I have no idea what to do.

 

And as I thought about it, it totally revolutionized by my mindset, because how many of us in today's modern society are all locked up because we're getting different opinions from everywhere. You know, somebody saying, oh, you know, you can't be too strict. Other persons say, no, you really need to have law and order, you know, your kids, you're hearing this, you're hearing that. And pretty soon we do get locked up because we're trying to process way too much information instead of just going to the source, going to scripture and looking at those themes. And I got to thinking as I was reflecting on Irma, I've seen a lot of loving parents raise kids who are not very healthy emotionally.

 

And I've also seen a lot of parents who are really strong raise kids who are not all that healthy and emotionally and not very good character. I've seen that. But honestly, when I reflect on it, I don't know if I've seen very many at all. I can't think of any who were both loving and strong at the same time, who had big problems with their kids. It was always that combination of that person who is very strong, very loving at the same time, who overall ended up raising the best put together kids.

 

Laura Dugger: (5:41 - 6:00)

Wow. That is so helpful to think of holding both of those truths. But then something else you also write about is how anxiety and perfectionism can be harmful to us as parents. What can we do to counteract both of those tendencies?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (6:02 - 12:03)

Well, I'm still struggling with those, but I can share with you what I've found is really helpful. And I've shared with many, many parents over the last 30 years, that's really, really helpful. So, let's just all camp out on that thing. So, from a biblical perspective, to consider who's really in control of this whole show. I mean, this idea of perfectionism is basically this idea that, yeah, thank you, God, for what you've done.

 

Now I've got it. Thank you for sending your son. Thank you for his sacrifice on the cross. I'm thankful that he rose again on the third day. I believe all that. I trust him with my salvation. Thank you so much. Now I'll take over. I got it now. And we all do that.

 

Us who really care, who are highly motivated people, we do that. And where does that bring us? It brings us to a place of perfectionism, because if it's all on our shoulders now, I've got to do it perfectly. It also brings us to a place of great anxiety because we start getting tired and we make a lot of mistakes because we're human beings. Right. And then we feel bad about it. And then we feel bad about feeling bad. And then we worry that our kids will see us worrying. And so, we're worrying about worrying. And we're thinking that maybe our kids are going to become warriors too. And then it just starts to blow up. And Christ, he says, come to me, all of you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 

Now, I know people know this and people watching this, listening to it. I know they know it, but how often do we forget it? So that's the big spiritual concept there. Okay. Another part of the answer is this. So, number one, the big spiritual, you know, concept, and that is trust Christ with this. The second one is hope and pray that your kids make plenty of mistakes. In fact, hope and pray that you make some mistakes in front of your kids, because think about it. If I don't make any mistakes and I'm really perfect and my kids are really perfect, then how, how needed in our minds is the gospel.

 

But when we're real and we make mistakes and we fall short, and when our kids are real and they make mistakes and they fall short, how relevant is the gospel? It's, I remember one time, one of my sons, he went into my remote office. It's just in part of the garage outside of the house. And he was going to pop some popcorn in the microwave, which he really wasn't supposed to be out there without supervision. And he went in there and he, I think he hit 30 minutes on it instead of three. And then he walked out and went back in the house and, and he just totally destroyed the microwave and almost lit the house on fire. And I found out about this. It's a big shock.

 

So, I come back in the house. I'm like, what happened here?

 

You know, he fesses up and now I'm flying off the candle, you know, not doing love or logic, like, Oh, for crying out loud. That was dangerous. And you're, and you're going to pay for that. And I'm just got my finger in his face and it's horrible. And then I walk away and it hits the shame, the pain. And parents, are we going to find ourselves in that spot? Is it possible to live life with our kids without finding ourselves in that spot? Maybe it's not exactly like that, but we have that great shame and that great regret. And we're going to Lord. Now it's relevant. Now it's relevant. And I remember going to my son later that day and apologizing. He's about eight. I said, I just handled that so poorly.

 

That was not, that was not love and logic. It's not what I teach. And I'm just ashamed and please forgive me. And he, he, he, he hugged me. We hugged each other and he said, dad, he said, that's okay. Like you always say, everybody needs Jesus all the time. It's like, and in those places of pain and imperfection where in spite of our best efforts, we fail. Is there a great opportunity for God to use that to bring glory to him? So, number one, big spiritual concept is trust Christ with this. Number two is hope and pray for mistakes. Okay. They're going to happen. We don't do them on purpose just so God can work it out. Right. But they're going to happen.

 

And then we're constantly going to Christ and we're, we're saying this, I've, I've memorized this and Lord, I don't know what to do, but my eyes are on you.

 

Laura Dugger: (12:07 - 12:17)

That's so good. And so freeing. We can even memorize that as it rhymes and is, I can't remember which book of the Bible that's from, but that's so helpful in all situations.

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (12:17 - 13:12)

Yeah. I, I just, I'm, I'm having a hard time remembering, but exactly where that is, but something about Jehovah, yeah, Jehoshaphat, I think it was. And this, this horde is coming in, you know, it's like this battle scene and they're going to get pummeled. I was like, I don't know what to do, but my eyes are on you. And, you know, honestly, what I, what I hope that my kids, I hope my kids will remember me someday and they'll, they'll be really truthful about me. And I, and I hope that, you know, honestly, I think they would probably say, you know, dad was kind of a mess sometimes, you know, what are the chances our kids are going to pick up on the fact that we're kind of a mess sometimes, right? Or maybe it's just me.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:12 - 13:12)

Okay.

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (13:12 - 13:24)

If it doesn't apply to you, don't, don't wear it, you know? Right. But, but, but I hope that they would say, yeah, dad is kind of a mess. Sometimes he had some issues, but man, he loved Jesus.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:25 - 13:38)

The other piece is with fear, and we know that fear is the enemy of love. So, Dr. Charles, how can we grow more in love as a parent?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (13:40 - 15:55)

Well, uh, I think we grow more in love when we truly embrace the gospel for our own personal lives. I remember struggling with some of these issues of fear. Like I don't measure up with my kids and, you know, and anytime I got in that anytime people get into that, they start being less loving, generally speaking. And I had a good friend and, and he said, he said, how often are you just basking in the love of Christ? I mean, how often are you just meditating on the depth of his love for you? And I thought, well, you know, most of the time I'm just thinking about how I fall short and don't deserve that love. And I think he said something like, well, you're true. You don't deserve it. I don't either. You didn't get it because you deserve it.

 

You got it because of his grace, his unmerited favor. So, find me a person that really deserves the grace of God. And then they're not anywhere. They never have been but soaking that up because it's kind of like a sponge. You know, if a sponge is dry, it's, it's, it's not a very effective tool, but it's soaking that up is, is what really gives us the spiritual strength to do what we need to do. It's my most honest question. And, you know, it's a most honest answer, I should say. And it's interesting. As I share that answer with you, I think, wow, that didn't sound very sophisticated. It wasn't a very complicated answer. It wasn't a, and don't we fall into that trap? The gospel is so simple.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:56 - 17:48)

Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

 

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I hope you check them out today. Going back to that advice that you received from your sweet neighbor, that first piece of God is strong. He's strong as a father. Yes. How can we become more like him in this area? And I'm thinking specifically as it relates to disciplining our children at all ages of their development.

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (17:50 - 26:43)

Well, we can become stronger by knowing that we can do it in a loving way. See, a lot of people are afraid of being strong with their kids because they think, well, I don't want to be unloving. No, that's the whole mix up there. See, the mind-bending truth of God is he's full of grace and he's full of truth at the same time. So, when we can be both, we have far fewer reservations about being strong. So, when I can set limits with empathy, but, and, and firmness, empathy and firmness, I have nothing to feel guilty about. So, when I'm saying I allow kids to have, you know, I start to have a discussion about cell phones and having one when they're at least eighth grade age.

 

And I can understand how badly you want one because many of your friends have them, but I can do that with a loving yet firm tone. Do I have anything to feel bad about? Okay. I'll listen to you when your voice is calm. I'll be more than happy to take you to your baseball practice or your baseball game when the chores are done. But yeah, but that's, that's, that it's going to take me like 20 minutes and we're going to be late. I know, son. And when will I take you? But that's too long. And when will I take you? But, but you're, you're mean. Jesus wasn't mean. You know, they'll pull stuff like that. Like you call yourself a Christian. Where's the grace, right? We don't fall for that trap.

 

We don't go into a deep theological discussion with the kid. No, we say, and when, when will we leave? See, in the book, I give a lot of examples of how to set limits with kids. In the book, I give a lot of examples of how to hold kids accountable with consequences. All of those examples are woven together with love. And they're all things that a parent can read about, imagine themselves doing and actually be successful. So, as I wrote the book, I thought, number one, I want to keep going back to the gospel. I want to keep going back to these deep theological truths that really do transform our lives on the heart level. But throughout the book, I also share a lot of ideas about how do we set a limit over this?

 

Or how do we handle this technology? Or how do we handle if the kid is defiant? You know, it says, I'm not doing that. You can't make me. And Laura, how about a loving and strong response to defiance? That might paint the picture for people. Can I share that with people? Please. Son, you know, I'd really appreciate you, you know, bringing in the wood or emptying the dishwasher, whatever. Okay. Let's say the kid says, I'm not doing that. I'm tired. I got a ton of schoolwork to do. You don't understand how busy I am. I mean, it's like around here is like, like living in the 17th century. Let's say you get some pushback like that. How many really ugly power struggles start in homes over issues like that? Then there's yelling on both sides.

 

There's not much strength and there's not much love. So, let's play this one out. My recommendation is the first thing that a parent can say is no problem. Let's all practice that. No problem. So, the kid says, I'm not doing that. You can't make me. No problem. Now let's stop here. A little commentary. Who are you really talking to when you're saying no problem yourself? You're saying no problem for me. A big problem coming up later on for this kid, right? Because there doesn't do need to be consequences for these things, but you're saying no problem. I love you too much to fight with you about this. If it doesn't get done by such and such time, I'll take care of it. I'm not doing that. No problem.

 

I love you too much to fight with you about this. If it doesn't get done by the deadline, I'll just take care of it. And then you walk away and you allow the kid to think they've gotten away with it. By the way, does God, does God handle everything immediately? Or are there times when no, no, it's good. Yeah. Now I have time to think I have time to pray. I have time to talk to other people about how I'm going to handle this. And think about it. Was I, was I loving, but was I also, was there an element of strength in that? Now, if the kid does what I did wanted, then, you know, that's, that's wonderful. Uh, but let's say they don't. And I go and the dishwasher is still full. And so, I, I empty it myself. That's one option. All right.

 

I just get it done. I took care of it. That's what I said. I do. So now this, this kid is coming to me and they're going to, they're going to probably need or want something from me at some point. And now the, now it's, I'm in a position where I probably ought to be thinking about what Christ did for me so that I can be more loving. As I described the consequence. Oh, son, I, I, I love you too much to fight with you about getting those dishes put away. So, so I did it. The problem is, is that, uh, now you, you were asking me to do such as such. And, you know, I, I do the extra things I do for people around here when I feel treated with respect and the chores are getting done. Yeah. But I'm really, really sorry.

 

You know, I, it won't happen again. Now let's say you have a kid and, and they hardly ever forget anything and they're always compliant. And yeah, you cut them some slack, right? Cause it's not a pattern. Well, let's say we have a kid who's just in the pattern of just not doing things and fighting with you about everything. You know what grace is under this circumstance. Grace is allowing him to experience the consequences of his actions so that he can grow. I've had a lot of people ask is, “You know, what, what really is grace? Well, it's unmerited favor, right? I would argue that God is in it. He's, he's not really comfortable with allowing us to stay the same. Would you agree with that? That there's there, there's a growth focus.

 

Like how, how can I, how can, how can I grow in the image of Christ? How can my kids grow in how their character reflects Christ? Is it grace when I allow them to have a lot of bad habits that, and they don't have to grow. No, I mean, is that good for them? No. So a lot of people think, well, I can't really upset my kid because if they're upset, that means I wasn't graceful enough. I would say a lot of times our desire to keep the peace actually creates a lot of pain and hardship for our kids long term. And then we have to come to the grips with the fact that maybe, maybe my niceness was not really grace.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:47 - 27:00)

Well, kind of along those same lines, but understanding there's no formula. Right. What would you say are a few key components of raising spiritually healthy kids?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (27:01 - 29:39)

Well, we do what, what God has commanded us to do. Okay. So, let's, let's look at that. We do our best to do that. We know that he's commanded us to talk with our kids about him, to teach scripture, to, to teach, talk about it on our, our walk along the road. And when we lay down at night and the basic idea is as we're going through the day, we're constantly pointing to scripture in, in just a positive, natural way. Wow. Look at that sun sunrise. That reminds me of just all the creation screams about God's glory. You know, look at that. He made that, you know, we're talking about things like that. Or I remember my dad, one time we were in the car and this lady just kind of backed out and bumped him.

 

And I was a teenager and he had this new car that I thought was kind of cool. And I was just irate, you know, I'm like, okay, dad, get out of that car, let her have it. You know, it's like he gets out of the car and I'm all right. Yeah, you go dad. And he, and I see him and, and he just gets back in right away. And I said, “You know, well, well, what did you say? He said, he said, “well, and she was having a really hard time today. She's having a hard day. It is no big deal. I mean, it's going to happen sooner or later. He let her off the hook. You know, it's things like that. Like that's, that was unmerited grace. And those things happen more likely in our lives when we are really soaking up the love of Christ, it becomes much more natural.

 

So, it's teaching them, it's doing, these are all obvious. One of the ones that we lose sight of is we are allowing them to face trials. How often do we see it as grace as parents, when it's really enabling bad behavior. Like we think grace is helicoptering. We, we think grace is rescuing them from the consequences of their poor decisions, because we don't want them to suffer. And sometimes we even pat ourselves on the back. Look what a great and kind person I am because I, I rescued this person out of their circumstances. And now their circumstances can't serve as a teaching tool. God changes hearts. One of the tools he uses big time is disruption.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:43 - 29:44)

Will you say more about that?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (29:46 - 30:10)

Well, if I'm always comfortable and somebody is making my life fairly easy all the time, regardless of my decisions, regardless of anything, if I'm, if I'm always pretty comfortable, is it just possible that I might start thinking that I'm the one who made it comfortable?

 

Laura Dugger: (30:12 - 30:13)

That makes sense.

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (30:17 - 31:23)

Is it entirely possible for me to be like Nebuchadnezzar? And I, I look out at my kingdom and I think, look at all of what I made. Look what I did, you know? And God gave him a gift. He humbled him and he ate grass and his hair grew really long. And his fingernails were tremendously long and he was tremendously humble, but how does, how does God teach us that we need him? Does he allow us to make mistakes? Does he allow us to face struggles? So as parents, doesn't it make sense that maybe we would take that lead and say, Hey, maybe, maybe the heavenly father who's perfect in all his ways and applies these principles with us might that those principles also be valuable for me as I raise my kids?

 

Laura Dugger: (31:26 - 32:37)

Well, I like how you go big picture and can take scripture to use that for teaching. And then also with raising spiritually healthy kids, something that I really appreciated. It was a combination of page 60 and 63, but when you were also getting practical with it, you were just talking about how to model after God. One of his names, L-Roy, L-R-O-Y. You said that's the God who sees me. And so, I loved your recommendation. So, I just want to share with everyone that you said for each of your kids, make a list of at least six things that they like, or they like to do. Healthy relationships are built by observing what our kids value.

 

Notice the little things communicates that we, I'm sorry, noticing the little things communicates that we cherish our kids so much that we even care about the smallest details. Then you go on a few pages later and kind of circle back and say, after you've got this list, approach each of your kids at least twice a week and share something you have noticed. So, will you elaborate on that idea?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (32:38 - 36:29)

Well, he is the guy who sees us. And that can be humbling, right? Where we're thinking, wait a second, even my thoughts, he knows. I mean, he knew, he knows what I'm going to do tomorrow. I don't know what I'm going to do tomorrow. All right. He sees me. So that could be a very humbling and a rather fearful thing. That's kind of the hard news of this whole story. But the good news is he sees me that intimately and he still loves me. I mean, we see the gospel in action here. We see the bad news of our sin. We all fall short of the glory of God. Now we see the good news. and, not but, and he loves us. He died for us while we were still sinners. And that's a, that's a powerful concept.

 

So, so practically speaking, though, again, making a list of all those little things that your kids love. Maybe they like to like to play with Legos or they like to draw, or they like a certain kind of car, you know, or they like a certain sport or a certain sports figure, or they like this, or they like that, or maybe they just like, like to wear blue shirts. Right. And so, we notice those things and it's just really kind of laid back. You know, you're going along the day, and you say, Hey, I noticed you're wearing, I noticed you're wearing your sneakers. Like, I mean, that sounds really weird, doesn't it? Like I noticed you're wearing your sneakers.

 

And if the kid is a teenager, they're going to look at you and say, yeah, like, like, that's weird. You know, like, yeah, I just noticed that. And then you move on. Right. It's not this big drawn-out conversation, but they constantly have this sense that you are noticing things about them that they value, that they love. I was thinking about this a few years ago, sitting at a baseball game. One of my sons was playing and I'm sitting kind of on the edge of where the other team's parents are. And there's this dad sitting next to me, who's trying to watch his boy play. but his little daughter is under the bleachers. She looks like she's about four and she's got everything. She needs to be super happy. Okay.

 

She's got a stick and she's sitting in the dirt and she's drawing with this stick, you know, and she's doing something with the stick. I don't know what the stick was in this kid's mind, but the greatest thing is I hear this beautiful little voice. And it sounds like daddy, daddy. Daddy, look at me. So, he peeks down through, you know, can he see her blow? And he says, “I see you. He has no idea what she's doing. I said, “What is she doing? He says, Oh, that's all. He's trying to watch his son. And then I hear it again. Daddy, daddy, look at me. He looks down at, Hey, I see you, honey. And she smiled really big. And then, you know, he tried to daddy. I heard that a million times. Daddy, daddy, look at me, look at me, you know?

 

And I thought, isn't that something we never grow out of? Daddy, look at me. And I would say that one of the greatest unfulfilled needs of, of kids in America is the need to be noticed by an adult in healthy ways. How big a need is it to be noticed? I mean, what will people do on social media to be noticed?

 

Laura Dugger: (36:34 - 37:11)

And what a gift to be able to give your children that. And I like the practical part of actually making a list. So, we know it's top of mind. Do we know what to refer to? Another thing I want to circle back to is you had mentioned grace, not being helicopter parenting. And actually, even in your book, you were citing studies about the correlation between chronic helicopter parenting and mental illness in youth. So, do you want to share any other parts of the findings with that or what we can do instead?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (37:12 - 41:26)

Well, essentially there's a broad body of research that more or less says kids need limits and then, and kids need struggle within the context of love. Okay. Another way to think about it is I, I say kids need the two Ss of growth. They need struggle and they need support. So, when we take away any struggles that they have, we take away the limits because we think that they'll be happier without those limits, or maybe we're just exhausted and we're tired of the hard work of setting those limits. What we create is a perfect storm for kids, developing anxiety and depression. Think about it. Okay. I'll think about it this way. I was lost in the mountains outside of Tucson. I kid you not. It's a real story.

 

I was hiking in the, in the Catalina mountains that, that are on the East side of Tucson. It's beautiful. I'm hiking and it gets dark and I have no perspective. I can't see the city. I'm walking along. I don't know how to get back. I have no reference point. How was I feeling? That's how kids feel. Right. When they don't have limits, they don't have a lamp for their feet. They don't have a light for their path. They don't know where they're going. And, and it's interesting because limits are like, like vegetables for kids, right? You know, they don't like them, but they desperately need them. Okay. They're really, it's, it's just like that. And so, when kids don't have limits, they feel terrified.

 

And, and at that point I remember thinking, Oh Lord, get me out of this mess. I got myself into, and I happened to, why? And I saw this little twinkling light, you know, which was a building. And I know there's no buildings going the wrong way. That's the right way. And I thought, oh, you know, it's not a big scratch stretch to say, you know, when you see the light, you have hope. Right. But, you know, God is a God of order. He's a God of beauty. He's a God of limits. Right. He gives those limits, of course, to bring glory to himself. But he also gives us those limits so that we have a sense of security, because down deep, we weren't built to run the show. Secondly, we need struggles.

 

Again, if you, if you study scripture, what you see is when people get to a point where they have no struggles, Solomon, the book of Ecclesiastes. Now he's in a position where he could just run experiments. I wonder what's going to bring me pleasure and fulfillment. So, he fills his stalls with thousands of horses. He has 700 wives, not including concubines. I mean, he's just, the possessions are unbelievable. He's got everything that he could possibly have because he has no problems that are getting in the way of this. Right. And what does he say about that? Oh, it was great, man. Now I've really arrived. Or does he writes like it. It's all meaningless. It's all chasing after the wind. It's all emptiness. It's all hopelessness.

 

And just an aside, a lot of people, my age start to retire and then they, they, they get some of them even get in a position where they can kind of create, you know, a life where they don't have that many problems. It's great for a year or two. I've had so many guys say, you know, fishing everyday stinks. It's like, I'm so tired of golf. You know, I've, I've so lost. I have, I have, this is meaningless. Whereas those, those people who retire and they're like, I I'm, you know, I can barely walk, but man, I'm going to get down there and I'm going to greet people at church. And I'm going to do, you know, I'm going to stay active and I'm going to, I'm going to continue to do hard things, things that are hard for me.

 

Those are the people that live a lot longer. They're a lot happier. They don't have all of the anxiety and depression. Here's the bottom line. A focus on self creates desperation and pain every time.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:27 - 42:49)

That is so good. And I think that paints a great picture. You've been going pointing back to our previous conversation. You're talking about in retirement, having still a sense of purpose and following God's calling. And in the previous book, you even talked about how to train our children to show them that they have a purpose as well. But I love that full circle illustration that we never outgrow that need as well.

 

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What are some benefits and parameters and recommendations around giving our children choices?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (42:51 - 45:54)

Oh, yeah. Choices are great for kids. Okay, but only within boundaries. And so, we want to give kids plenty of choices, and we always want to give two options with each choice that we're good with. Like, so do you want juice or milk? Now, in this situation, I'm fine with either one, right? I don't say, would you like milk or a Dr. Pepper with a couple extra spoonfuls of sugar mixed in? I was like, that's an outrageous example, a little hyperbole there. But we're always picking two things. You want to do your choice now or in five minutes, okay?

 

And a lot of times when I'll go places with my kids, when I used to go places with my kids when they were still at home and I knew they didn't want to go, I would say, you want to go right now or in five minutes? And I would always ask them five minutes before we actually had to leave, right? And then they felt powerful, right? Or are you going to wear your blue shirt or the red shirt? Are you going to take out the trash or even clean up after the dog? You know, I don't want to do either one of those. Well, you know, just pick one, just have it done by such and such time because, you know, I do take care of things. And so, yeah, that's a major rule for giving choices.

 

Another one is I never give a choice unless I'm willing to choose for the kid in about two seconds flat if they don't choose. So, if the kid says, I don't know or I'm not sure or I don't want to, you always choose for them, right? Do that. Another rule for giving choices is you try to give choices before there's some sort of problem. For example, let's say I'm at the dinner table and my kid says, I don't want this. And then I give them a choice about what to have. That's rewarding complaining, right? Because I gave the choice after the resistance. So, I always want to give the choice before the resistance. So, do you want to have carrots or peas as a vegetable tonight? Much more effective if I do that before there's a problem.

 

And I would just say that give 99% of your choices when everything's going well, when it's fun for you. You know, it's like when things are good and you can think of a choice, give the kid a choice. When things aren't going that well, it's okay just to say, okay, this is the way it's going to be, right? And you just choose for the kid. But the whole idea here is there's a couple ideas under this. Number one, the more choices that we can give people that are healthy, little choices like this, the less resistance we're going to get. But there's also this idea that the brain is just like every other muscle. And the more practice it has making choices, even if they're smaller ones, the better it's going to get at it.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:58 - 46:09)

What if they do resist though, when you give them those choices and then it becomes a thing because they say, I don't want to do either. I want C an option that you didn't give them.

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (46:10 - 46:49)

Yeah. You know, honey, I'm going to pretend you're, let's say you're, you're my daughter. Okay. Honey, I give, I give choices when it's fun for me and it's not fun for me right now. So, this is what's going to happen. You know and notice how I'm smiling at the kid. It's, it's a loving response, but it's also a firm response. Yeah. And I give choices when it's really fun for me. I love to do it for you. And now you're making it not very fun for me. So, here's what's going to happen. Right. And so, it's, it's pretty direct. It's pretty firm, but it's also says, “Hey kid, I love you. You know, you're just out of line right now. That doesn't change how I feel about you.”

 

Laura Dugger: (46:51 - 47:05)

That's good. And again, that loving grace in a way that we wouldn't expect it. How can we also help guide our kids to own their own problems and solve their own problems?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (47:06 - 55:46)

Well, first of all, it's by allowing them to have problems. Okay. Secondly, it's by asking ourselves when they have a problem, asking ourselves, is this a life-threatening really serious problem? And sometimes when there's a really serious problem, I mean, all the time, when there's a really serious problem, we rescue them. I mean, if their life's in danger, they're going to get hurt. There's something really serious or it's a deep spiritual issue. And I feel like, no, God is really calling me to just say no on this and really take charge. Go for it. Listen to him. You know, here's some really important advice, by the way, listen to what God is telling you through his Holy spirit. And I always pick that over what I wrote in my book. Okay.

 

Would you do that for me, please? Because I'm totally flawed. Okay. I think it's a really good book. I put a lot of work and, you know, decades of experience into it. But, you know, the Holy spirit, God, I mean, he's a superior source by far. Okay. But, but, you know, the next piece is if it's a problem that the kid can learn from, and it might still be painful for the kid, difficult, but they can learn from it. Then I'm going to hand it back to them. And I'll give you five steps. These are written down in the book. The first step is you empathize. You say, wow, you lost your coat at school. Yeah, well, the teacher wasn't even, I think somebody stole it. That's gotta hurt. That's gotta be scary. And that's step one, empathy.

 

Now people need to know that we care, right? Step two, ask this question. What do you think you're going to do? What are you going to, what are you going to do about your coat? What do you think? What do you think is an option? Now that's called handing the problem back. But what does that question say to the kid? The underlying message? What does it say? You're strong. You're capable. And by the way, this is yours. The problem is, and I'm here to guide. I'm not here to own this. But you don't have to say all that. It just comes through. So, empathize, ask what do you think you're going to do? A lot of times kids will say, I don't know. Their shoulders go, I don't know. Sometimes they'll say, that's why I'm asking you.

 

And step three is would you like to hear some ideas? Would you like to hear what some other people decide to do? I know a mom in this exact scenario. A kid kept losing coats at school. He comes home. Somebody stole my coat. Oh, no. What do you think you're going to do? I don't know. Would you like to hear what some kids decide to do? And he says, what? Now step four, she gave him a menu of options. She says, well, some kids, and use that language. Some kids. Don't say you should. Because with a strong-willed kid, when you say you should, they'll automatically, well, no. You're just telling me what to do. No. Some kids. So, she says to him, now this is suburbs north of Detroit.

 

She says, some kids decide to wear a lot of shirts for the rest of the winter. How would that work for you? She had no good idea. But it was a plausible one. Some kids decided to wear a lot more shirts. And he says, you're crazy, mom. This is Michigan. And it's February. And she says, yeah, it's pretty cold out. But notice she's doing a little cause and effect training. Some kids decide. She shares that. How will that work? And by the way, your ideas don't have to be that great. See, your role is not to solve the problem. Your role is to give them a template for problem solving. Oh, you're not happy. You don't think it'd be good to wear a lot of shirts. That's a terrible idea, mom. I can't even believe you said that. Oh, yeah.

 

Well, I guess one idea. Some kids decide that they're going to take all the money they've saved in their piggy bank. And they go and ask their mom to take them down to the used clothing shop. How would that work for you? He says that's a terrible idea. And you know, that's not good. And don't expect the kid to thank you for this, by the way. So far, it's not very gratifying for mom. I mean, it'd be a lot more gratifying if she just said, oh, here's a new coat. And she could be the hero. Short-term gratification, long-term pain, though. Irresponsible kid down the road. But no, she's going, she's taking the high road. Oh, that's not a good idea. She says, well, I only have one other idea.

 

Some kids decide that they're going to buy a new coat. You know, I'll be happy to take you to the mall, and she can pull together enough money to buy a new coat. You got one. He said that coats are expensive. She says, yeah. She wanted to say, yeah. Haven't I been telling you that for nine years? But she didn't. Yeah. And you know what she says next? She says, step five. By the way, step five is you allow them to solve or not solve the problem. Don't pick one of the solutions. Don't try to get closure on it. See, they need to have a lack of closure so they can struggle with the problem. Oh, I can't wait to hear what you decide to do. Let me know how this works out. And she just distances herself for a moment, just walks away.

 

She said, honey, I love you. I wish you the best. He goes in his room. He slams the door. Now he's not very happy, and she feels terrible. It's hard work, allowing our kids to struggle. He comes out a few minutes later, and he talks like this. Now, I wonder if any of you have heard a nine-year-old talk like this. She can't hear what he's saying. She says, what? I can't hear you. A little bit louder the next time. Honey, I'd love to hear you, but I can't. Finally, he says, will you take me down to the used clothes shop? And she said, I'll take you. And he took his money down there, and he found an old coat. It was kind of worn out, and I think it was like $5 or something like that, and he paid it.

 

And they walked out, and she washed the coat like nine times, and then he wore that coat to school. And he wore it everywhere, and a miracle happened. That coat he had lost that they had bought for him resurfaced. He thought it was stolen. Maybe the criminals at school felt guilty, and they returned it to the lost and found, or maybe he just lost it. But anyway, now he has two coats. He has one that's kind of worn out, and he has this newer one that's pretty nice. Now, which one did he continue to wear? There's a deep psychological, I would even suggest, a spiritual principle, and that is that when we have worked through something, when we've given something our heart, are we more likely to put it on?

 

So, when we own our kids' spiritual life, like we decide what they believe, we decide what they're going to do all the time, are they really working it out? Does it really become part of them so that they can put it on and wear it when they grow older and even during tough times, or is it a piece of clothing that we own? And that's the challenge, isn't it, friends? We teach, we guide, we model. At some point, we all have to come to grips with the fact that salvation is an act of grace. It's not something that we can give our kids. It's not something we can give ourselves. We are saved by grace through faith and not through works. Our kids are saved by grace through faith, not through our works. So, we can plant the seeds of spiritual growth.

 

We can water those seeds of spiritual growth, but who makes them grow?

 

Laura Dugger: (55:55 - 56:12)

Absolutely. Well, and one more parenting question for you. Will you just share some of the questions that we can ask our children to help them discover their unique giftings from God and learn how to use them for the good of others?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (56:13 - 1:00:50)

Yeah. I brought up the book of Ecclesiastes, and I was reading it this morning, and he said one of the solutions to this meaningless feeling is take pleasure in our work, taking pleasure in our work. And parents, if we can help our kids discover what their God-given gifts are and encourage them to pursue them, even if it's not what we think they should pursue, are the odds a lot higher that they're going to gain some meaning and enjoyment from their work, regardless of what they choose to do? So, son, what are the things that you love to do? You know, I'm constantly asking my kid, more importantly, I'm really watching, what do they gravitate towards naturally?

 

Now, not all of those things are good, because we know the human heart, right, is not a healthy thing in and of itself. But we watch what they love to do. And you know something's a gift under, this is just one half of the answer, we know it's a gift when we do it and we lose track of time because we love doing it so much. All of a sudden we realize an hour's gone by, and it felt like a minute. So, it's a gift when we feel that. But there's also a second criteria, and we ask our kids this, son, how can you use that to bless other people? And then all of a sudden, some of the things that kids really like to do, we realize are not gifts.

 

You know, it's like obsessive video game playing in and of itself, probably not something that's going to be a blessing to other people for you to do as an adult full time, right? Okay. But think about this, parents. If you can help your kid discover something that they naturally do well, and help them see how to use that to bless other people, where's the downside? I had a friend, a couple of friends that I worked with, and they said, yeah, that makes sense, but she's going to make a lot more money as an engineer than as a chef. All she can think about is cooking, and we don't want her to cook because we both of us are cooks, and this small restaurant has just chewed us up over the years trying to run this place. We want better for her.

 

She needs to take STEM classes. She needs to do this and that because if she becomes an engineer or something like that, she's going to have a lot more stability in her life, and she's a really good kid making decent grades, and all they could think about was the fact that she wasn't taking the right classes. In fact, they forgot about the fact that she had a servant heart. She'd give to anybody who asked that she was always helping other people. There was no such thing as a stray animal because she'd take care of them, and I said to them, I said, how would you feel if somebody couldn't see your gifts and expected you to live a life where you did what's the most difficult for you and least fulfilling for the rest of your life?

 

It was hard for me to ask that question because I didn't want to, you know, it's a little painful to talk about, but again, if we love somebody, we'll help them grow, and they went to her, and they said this. Our job is to help you discover what you do naturally well that can help other people, and our job is to help you figure out how to turn that into a career, and if you can do that, we know it's still going to be hard because work is hard, but we know that your life's going to be blessed, and so are other people's, and guess what? Are you guessing the relationship with their daughter just got a whole lot better real quick?

 

Laura Dugger: (1:00:53 - 1:01:08)

Well, you have modeled wisdom in parenting from young ages to then, it sounds like you've been parenting adults, and Dr. Charles, there's still so much more we could continue to learn from you, so where would you like to direct us to go after this chat?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (1:01:09 - 1:01:48)

Oh, okay, so you can go to loveandlogic.com, learn all about the love and logic approach. This is our 49th year in business. It's, yeah, it's pretty amazing. My father, Jim Fay, and his good friend, Dr. Foster Klein, started it. I grew up around it, so loveandlogic.com, and the book I just wrote, Raising Spiritually Strong Kids, it's available anywhere books are sold, so you just Google Raising Spiritually Strong Kids, Dr. Charles Fay, you'll find it. Its pre-orders are being taken now. It will be coming out October 5th.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:49 - 1:02:10)

Wonderful. We are going to add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode, and you've been a guest with us here before, so you're familiar that this, we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge, and so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (1:02:11 - 1:02:51)

Well, my savvy sauce is asking myself, this thought I just had, does it really line up with God's word? If I can get in the habit and teach my kids to get in the habit of asking themselves, is my thinking, what I just thought, does that really line up with the truth? And if it doesn't, what is the truth? Our lives are going to be a whole lot more blessed.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:02:52 - 1:03:18)

Well said, and I just appreciate you bringing so many different pieces of scripture to life, something that I've experienced through this conversation with you, the way that you're modeling parenting, you bring to mind a scripture that says, calmness can lay great errors to rest, and so I just appreciate you sharing your wisdom and guidance with us today. Thank you so much for being my returning guest.

 

Dr. Charles Fay: (1:03:18 - 1:03:26)

Oh, thank you. Always a pleasure, and I'll do it anytime. Love talking to you, Laura. You as well. Thank you, Dr. Charles.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:03:27 - 1:07:10)

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.