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What if heaven isn’t somewhere far away—but a dimension of reality surrounding us right now?
To close out the Summer Series, Tim Stewart welcomes back Brian Zahnd for a fascinating conversation about heaven, pilgrimage, wonder, the false self, and his new book, Unseen Existences: Of Heaven, Earth, and the Divine Mystery in All Things.
Brian explains why heaven has become an embarrassment in serious theological circles, lumped in with escapist "fly away" thinking, sentimental clichés about departed loved ones on clouds, and sensationalized "I went to heaven and back" books. His pushback: heaven isn't a distant location somewhere past the clouds, but another dimension of reality, "the heavens," that surrounds us right now. Tim and Brian also talk through where Brian gently disagrees with N.T. Wright's caution around Platonic thought, recruiting C.S. Lewis to make his case.
The conversation moves into life as pilgrimage. Brian, who has walked the 500-mile Camino de Santiago four times, describes what a spiritual journey teaches that a plane ticket to the same destination never could, and how doubt, wonder, and even losing old certainties along the way can be part of authentic faith rather than a threat to it. He shares one of the sharper lines from the book: "Christianity without transcendence degenerates into politics," and what a "holy ambivalence" toward political partisanship might look like instead.
Tim and Brian also dig into one of the book's most striking chapters, "Depart From Me," reconciling Jesus's gentle response to Peter's confession of sin with his far more sobering words at the judgment, "I never knew you." Brian explains why he believes that verdict falls on the false self we try to become, not the person God actually made us to be. Along the way, Brian tells the story behind "The Reverend," a haunting short story cut from the final manuscript about a Puritan pastor who blessed a massacre, and what it imagines happening when that pastor stands before Christ.
In This Episode
- Why heaven has "gone missing" from serious theological conversation, and the three unhelpful ways people talk about it instead
- Why Brian says heaven isn't a distant place but "a different dimension" that is all around us right now
- Where Brian pushes back on N.T. Wright's caution toward Platonic thought, with help from C.S. Lewis
- Why Brian argues that "Christianity without transcendence degenerates into politics"
- What walking the Camino de Santiago four times taught Brian about pilgrimage, friendship, and spiritual transformation
- Why losing our sense of wonder isn't inevitable, and a simple daily discipline for reclaiming it
- How to hold together Jesus's compassion toward Peter and his sobering words, "I never knew you," at the judgment
- The story behind "The Reverend," the short story cut from the book, and its message about mercy at the final judgment
This wraps thirteen weeks of Summer Series conversations exploring who God really is. If any of these episodes have challenged or encouraged you, follow or subscribe to the Impact Nations Podcast, and share your favorite conversation with someone who'd value it too.
Featured Resources
Unseen Existences by Brian Zahnd (available now from InterVarsity Press): IVP: https://www.ivpress.com/unseen-existences Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Unseen-Existences-Heaven-Divine-Mystery/dp/1514005646
“The Reverend” (the short story Brian mentions, plus its audio performance): https://brianzahnd.substack.com/p/audio-performance-of-the-reverend
Brian Zahnd's website: https://brianzahnd.com
Brian Zahnd on Substack: https://brianzahnd.substack.com
Word of Life Church: https://wolc.com
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