James Lord says a background check tells you whether someone has been convicted of a crime, but a reference tells you about their character. He has spent nearly 20 years in HR tech, and the last decade of it focused on references. In 2025 he joined Refapp, a Swedish platform bringing structured, evidence-based reference checks to North America.
Plenty of companies skip references or treat them like a box to tick. James says that’s a risk, especially when you’re hiring for roles that come with trust and access. With AI-polished resumes and teams that are only in the office part of the week, he argues that a real reference is how you learn how someone behaves when you aren’t watching.
If you’ve ever skipped references to close a req faster, or called a candidate’s friend and learned nothing, this conversation is for you.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
How reference checking differs from background checking, and why people mix them up
Why letting candidates pick any reference they want gets you nothing useful
The 180% ROI James calculates for structured reference checks
How to get references from people whose companies forbid giving them
Why interviews miss counterproductive work behaviors like bullying
How one reference turned into a brand-new candidate
Why James’s upcoming DisruptHR talk is called “The Reference Check Is a Lie”
Start your extended free trial of Refapp: https://www.refapp.com/hey-laurie-friend
00:00 - Intro
02:33 - References vs. background checks
03:53 - Taking the subjectivity out of references
06:38 - The ROI of checking references
08:40 - How Refapp works inside the ATS
09:54 - Who writes the reference questions
11:46 - Keeping reference answers confidential
13:09 - Getting around no-reference company policies
15:50 - The risks of skipping reference checks
19:01 - Making the need-to-have case
21:04 - Winning over reference check skeptics
22:19 - How Refapp differs from competitors
24:29 - Marathons and life outside work
26:33 - James’s upcoming DisruptHR talk
