B2B Brands Are Too Measurable to Be Memorable, with Lindsay Cournoyer

About this episode

Here’s something most B2B marketers know but do not always say out loud.

We have gotten very good at measuring things.

Attribution. Pipeline metrics. Sourced revenue. Influenced revenue. Cost per lead.

And yet, a lot of B2B brands are still forgettable.

Not because the marketers are bad.

Because the system keeps pulling them toward what can be tracked, reported, and defended in the next pipeline review or board meeting.

That is the tension at the center of this conversation with Lindsay Cournoyer, Fractional CMO and Brand Marketing Consultant at LC Consulting, and former CMO at Blue J.

Lindsay has led marketing at companies including Axonify, Coconut Software, and Blue J. At Blue J, an AI-powered tax research company, she helped 5x revenue and raise $122 million in Series D funding.

But that is not the main reason I wanted to talk with her.

I wanted to talk with Lindsay because while that growth was happening, she made a brand bet that many B2B marketers would struggle to defend on a dashboard.

She invested in out-of-home advertising.

Billboards. Elevator ads. Radio. Physical media in a B2B SaaS company.

That is not the usual B2B playbook.

But Lindsay believed the company needed something that the usual performance channels were not delivering: awareness, trust, and memory in buyers’ minds before they were ready to enter a sales process.

Her line from LinkedIn captures the problem clearly:

“B2B brands are so obsessed with being measurable that they forget to be memorable.”

That is where this conversation starts.

We talk about why performance marketing can capture demand but cannot create all of it, how Lindsay made the case for out-of-home inside a B2B SaaS company, what she measured before and after the campaign, and why brand work can feel risky when marketing already has to justify itself more than other functions.

If you have ever felt pressure to optimize for a metric instead of an outcome, this episode is for you.

About Lindsay Cournoyer

Lindsay Cournoyer is a Fractional CMO and Brand Marketing Consultant at LC Consulting.

She has led marketing at B2B companies including Axonify, Coconut Software, and Blue J, where she most recently served as CMO. At Blue J, she helped the company grow revenue 5x and raise $122 million in Series D funding.

Lindsay works with B2B SaaS founders and leadership teams on brand strategy, messaging, and go-to-market.

Connect with Lindsay

Connect with Lindsay Cournoyer on LinkedIn

Chapters

00:00 Introduction: B2B Brands Are Too Measurable to Be Memorable
01:53 Why Brand Has to Create Demand Before Performance Captures It
03:29 The CEO Saw the Brand Problem
04:24 The Marketing Tax and Why Brand Needs CEO Support
07:35 Making the Case for Brand Inside the Business
10:11 How Lindsay Measured Awareness and Consideration
13:50 Staying Steady When the Bet Feels Risky
16:55 What to Do When Your Company Doesn’t Value Brand
22:26 How to Make the Case for Brand Investment

A few things worth taking away

Performance marketing has a role, but it mostly captures existing demand. Brand helps create the demand performance later captures.

B2B buyers need to remember you before they are ready to buy. If you are not already planted in their mind, you may never make the shortlist.

Out-of-home can be targeted in B2B when you know where your buyers work, commute, gather, and pay attention.

The marketing tax is real. Many marketing leaders spend too much time justifying their function rather than doing the work that creates long-term value.

A CEO who understands brand changes the entire marketing environment. Without that support, big brand bets are much harder to make.

Brand can be measured, but not always through the same dashboard logic as demand generation. Lindsay used pre- and post-campaign surveys to measure awareness, perceptions, consideration, and likelihood of purchase.

A brand campaign can move more than awareness. In Lindsay’s case, they saw an increase in awareness and purchase consideration.

Sometimes the best thing a marketer can do is accept the reality of where they are, protect their sense of worth, and look for a better environment where marketing is understood.

If a CEO does not understand brand, use examples from their own life. Show them how brands earn memory before the buying moment.

Sometimes you have to earn the right to make a brand investment by first showing how marketing contributes to pipeline and revenue.

A few lines that stuck with me

“B2B brands are so obsessed with being measurable that they forget to be memorable.” — Lindsay Cournoyer

“Marketing’s true job is to carve out that place in your buyers’ brains.” — Lindsay Cournoyer

“We have to build brand awareness and trust and credibility before you really step on the gas of performance marketing.” — Lindsay Cournoyer

“There are companies out there who actually get it. They are very hard to find, but they are out there.” — Lindsay Cournoyer

“Sales have to be there. And then you may get the shot.” — Lindsay Cournoyer

Resources mentioned

The B2B Roundtable episode with Jon Miller on what comes after the MQL

Growth Isn’t a Headcount Problem. It’s a Precision Problem, with DeAnna Ransom

Listen and subscribe

Subscribe to The B2B Roundtable wherever you listen to podcasts.

Transcript

Brian Carroll: Here’s something most B2B marketers know but don’t say out loud.

We’ve gotten very good at measuring things: attribution, pipeline metrics, sourced revenue, influenced revenue, cost per lead. And yet, a lot of B2B brands are forgettable.

And it’s not because the B2B marketers are bad. It’s because the system keeps pulling them from what they know is the right thing to do, and they’re forced to do things that are tracked, measured, and can be reported at the next board meeting.

It’s harder to attribute when you focus on brand. It’s harder to justify in a pipeline review, so it often gets pushed aside.

Welcome to The B2B Roundtable. I’m Brian Carroll. And in this podcast, we talk about the things that dashboards miss.

My guest today is Lindsay Cournoyer. She’s been a marketing leader at companies including Axonify, Coconut Software, and most recently served as the CMO at Blue J, which is an AI-powered tax research company where she helped 5x revenue and raise $122 million in Series D funding.

That’s impressive, but that’s not the main reason I wanted to talk to her.

I wanted to talk to Lindsay because while this growth was happening, she made a significant investment in out-of-home advertising. And this included billboards, physical media in a B2B SaaS company. It was the kind of bet that’s hard to defend with a dashboard.

And she did it anyway.

So today we’re going to talk about why. And if you’ve ever felt pressure to optimize for a metric instead of an outcome, this conversation is for you.

And Lindsay has a line that names the problem really well. She wrote this in a recent LinkedIn post: B2B brands are so obsessed with being measurable that they forget to be memorable.

And that’s where we’re starting today.

So Lindsay, what were you seeing that made that feel true?

Lindsay Cournoyer: Yeah, it’s a great question. And I will say the obsession is real among executives and board members.

I think back to what Jon Miller talks about all the time, that people want marketing to be a gumball machine and act like a gumball machine. You put a dollar in and you get three out. And it’s supposed to be this really predictable thing that you can just game the system and get to the revenue that you want.

But that’s just simply untrue.

Performance marketing has its place. Its role is to capture the demand that’s been created for your brand. But if you just lean into performance marketing and focus on that, you’re missing the whole front part.

Really, what I believe is marketing’s true job is to carve out that place in your buyers’ brains and be the solution that comes to mind first when a buyer thinks of your category.

And if you don’t focus on building your brand and trust and reputation before you get into performance marketing, you’re really missing the whole point of what I think marketing is here to do.

Brian Carroll: You made this significant out-of-home investment, which is unusual in B2B. That’s not something people typically do. And it was a big bet.

What was the problem you were trying to solve that the usual marketing metrics and channels weren’t solving?

Lindsay Cournoyer: Yeah, it’s another great story.

Really, the reason I took the role is because the problem to solve was named by the CEO in my interview process. And it was, not enough people know about us and the awesomeness that is our software.

It’s like, we have this great product, but the CEO knew that if everyone in the market didn’t know about it, the company was not going to get where they wanted to go.

So he inherently understood the need for brand.

I was winning already out of the gate. And like I said, that’s really why I took the job in the first place, because of that understanding of the need to build brand awareness and trust and credibility before you really step on the gas of performance marketing.

Brian Carroll: It sounds like your CEO was enlightened thinking about this idea of brand, because that is not the experience that a lot of B2B marketers have.

Lindsay Cournoyer: Yes.

I think we undergo a lot of scrutiny in marketing that other departments just don’t feel. We’re continuously having to justify ourselves and our decisions and our plans and our budget and our headcount.

And there’s just this kind of skepticism around marketing that exists. It’s pretty pervasive. It’s not in every company, but I’d say it might be in most.

It’s really tough to operate in that kind of environment and carry that kind of tax.

I have experienced it, and it really does just tire you out and take you away from the really important work that you should be doing when you have to be doing PR for your team all the time.

This was a brand new product. It didn’t exist. It was AI for tax research, essentially a ChatGPT-like experience where you go in and ask your tax question and up pops the answer with all the verifiable sources.

It didn’t exist before. And it was a much cleaner and more enjoyable way to do tax research than what accountants have dealt with in the past, with hours of painstaking research and judgment calls and asking the partner.

It just didn’t exist.

So the CEO really knew this is brand new to the market. We need to go introduce it to the market.

I am grateful for that, but I realize it’s not the case in every company.

So I do think, unfortunately, we do have to do some explaining about brand and why awareness matters and why building trust and credibility with buyers matters.

Really, I think CEOs should be curious about brand. If they’re not, that’s a mistake. They should take it upon themselves to go and talk to their marketing leader and really start to do their own research and understand why awareness building and credibility and trust is so important.

That shouldn’t always be on us.

So I would encourage any CEOs out there listening who don’t know a lot about brand or marketing and kind of see it as this black box, to really make an effort to understand the craft and the strategy behind it.

I think in certain cases, there are just CEOs or executive teams or boards out there who aren’t going to do that. And if you find yourself in one of those companies or situations, unfortunately, sometimes you just can’t get through and win, and you will just carry the tax ongoing.

Brian Carroll: That’s the double burden. You have your job to do, and then there’s the need to justify the very existence of the function or your team, and you’re constantly doing PR.

Lindsay Cournoyer: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Brian Carroll: How did you get there? How did you make that case?

Lindsay Cournoyer: I really did something that we all do a lot of. I had to essentially act kind of like a professor on brand.

I created a really detailed brand strategy deck that I presented at an executive offsite planning meeting. And I explained that we have to carve out a place in people’s minds as the category leader and a new solution that they can trust, and that we are already leading the category and are really the horse that they want to bet on.

So I went through quite an extensive educational exercise with the team, and the response was really positive.

These are people who really didn’t know that much about marketing, and they leaned in and they were super excited.

At the end of that presentation, I went through all of the things you need to do to build brand and credibility and trust and get that place in people’s brains.

And the culmination of that work was an out-of-home campaign and a big multi-channel brand campaign that was tremendously successful.

So I had the support of the internal team, which was amazing. But I will tell you that there were skeptics.

One of our board members was not happy with my campaign idea and expressed their displeasure. And, of course, our CEO was a little like, “Are we doing the right thing?”

And I just stayed steadfast. Yes, we are doing the right thing.

Their argument was that this was too broad, it’s not targeted. But actually, out of home can be very targeted.

For example, where are the offices of the firms you want located? They’re in specific cities or specific areas or specific neighborhoods. Go buy out of home and put a billboard right out front of their office or in the elevator that they ride up and down every day.

It’s really about getting their attention through an untraditional channel, but I think it’s a myth that it can’t be a targeted play.

Brian Carroll: It’s really interesting.

I was just thinking about when we had Jon Miller on our podcast earlier. We talked about the problem of the MQL, that it’s the last 5% of people who actually express interest.

But what about the 95% who don’t, who aren’t yet in consideration, who don’t quite even know the problem?

And as you talked about, you’re introducing something new, a new category, something that didn’t exist.

After it launched, how did you know it was working? What did you measure? What changed? And what did you have to admit you couldn’t measure? And so you needed to build that trust with the internal team to say, “Yeah, we’re still doing it because it’s the right thing.”

Lindsay Cournoyer: Yeah. Well, there actually is a very clear way to measure awareness. And it’s not cheap. You have to put some money behind it.

But what we did is we developed a survey, which we took to market through a third-party partner. And it basically asked people, have you heard about us? What do you think about us? Who do you see as the category leader?

Are you going to consider buying software like ours in the next year? Which product are you leaning toward?

So we asked a lot of what I think were smart questions just to understand current awareness and perception levels in the key markets that we wanted to win.

What came back was really interesting. Our awareness was actually quite high. We had done a really good job spreading the message and the product through events and partnerships. So we were starting from a strong place already, which I think was surprising to some of us.

But we came out strong, and we did a three-month campaign in four key markets where we used out of home and radio, which is another underutilized channel.

Accountants love radio. They listen to sports talk, and we did SiriusXM. It was a great channel to reach them.

Then we let the campaign go. And afterwards we went back and surveyed again.

The goal that we were going for was a four-point lift in awareness, which is statistically significant. We could say, okay, this campaign worked.

And we got much more than that out of the campaign in the results that came back.

And then, interestingly, this was amazing. Not only did the awareness lift in a big way, but consideration also moved.

So people who had seen three to four versions of the creative reported a much higher likelihood of buying us.

That was all I needed.

We worked so hard on this. And to be honest, I was scared shitless running this campaign. It was a big bet. I was freaking out. My agency had to calm me down several times because I’m like, this has to work. This is really important.

And they assured me, “Lindsay, it’s going to work. It’s going to work.”

And it did.

The outcome was so amazing that, since I have left to work for myself again, they’re going to keep going with the brand investment because it’s something that worked and it needs to be sustained.

Brian Carroll: I think a lot of marketers are dealing with similar feelings. They’re overwhelmed. There’s anxiety because they constantly have to justify their job. There’s constant input given from peers.

You wouldn’t tell the CFO, “Hey, have you thought of this ratio versus that ratio?”

Lindsay Cournoyer: Exactly. Yes.

Brian Carroll: What are some of the things you’ve needed to do to help yourself stay steady when every day people are wondering, why do we have marketing?

Lindsay Cournoyer: You know what? I honestly felt like this campaign was big enough and high profile enough that my job was on the line.

If it didn’t go well, there’s a high likelihood that I may be exited because it was a lot of money and a big swing and a big bet.

Like I said before, I was terrified. But I know this kind of investment is so important, and I believe in brand marketing through and through.

So I really had this internal dialogue in my head of, “You know what, Lindsay? This is the right thing to do. Don’t go down the death spiral. Just keep positive that it’s going to work.”

And the creative was really strong, super resonant.

Somehow I stayed positive and I believed in the campaign. And to be honest, if I lost my job over it, I would have been fine with that.

Brian Carroll: And so I’m just wondering if you were talking to someone else who is a CMO right now, as a peer or someone who wants to ascend to that role, what advice would you give them to be able to stay steady as they’re making these big bets and doing things that don’t show up in the dashboard right away, like you just did?

Lindsay Cournoyer: My advice is if you find yourself in a situation where you have a CEO who understands the value of brand, they’re going to let you take a swing like this. And they’re going to support you as they should.

If you’re in a company where the CEO doesn’t get brand or why it’s important, you’re likely never going to get the go-ahead to do something like this ever.

So I would say, when you’re interviewing for a role, and if you believe in brand and want to take a big shot like this, you really have to do your due diligence and go deep on the CEO you’re working for and the board and how they perceive marketing and whether or not their portfolio companies are doing stuff like this.

Because if you see that they’re not and all they care about is performance marketing, I think that’s a really clear telling sign.

Brian Carroll: I think there’s a lot of people who are listening who are like, that sounds great, but I’m where I’m at right now.

And maybe because there is this anxiety in the field of marketing, especially technology marketing right now with the rise of AI, with the questions about how buying is changing right now, and how we no longer can put forms up and do content marketing the way that we used to.

So I’m just wondering, for that person listening right now who wants to influence their team and they’re stuck in this tactical role of seeing marketing as the demand gen function only, what advice or suggestions would you give?

Because maybe some people are where they are and they’re saying, “How do I influence or even try to make a difference in my organization?”

Lindsay Cournoyer: The first thing we have to acknowledge is just sometimes you can’t make a difference.

And it’s up to you.

The truth is a lot of us just need jobs and income to support our families. I had this conversation on LinkedIn. Lisa Adams posted this exact comment on the post about the tax. Sometimes we don’t have a choice. We have to work in these companies that don’t get it.

I think you can either just accept it and do your job and earn your paycheck, but you can’t let it suck your soul.

You have to be able to say, this is the situation, and detach yourself from it to continue to work in the company.

But if you can detach and just do the best job and collect your paycheck, it sucks, but a lot of people do operate that way because we have to. We don’t have a choice.

At the same time, I would start looking at the brands who are doing out of home and who are doing brand activations. Start to network with their marketing team people. Follow them on LinkedIn and engage with their content.

You can work your way into a better situation eventually.

Brian Carroll: I think for some people, just that encouragement you gave could give us license to say, accept the reality where you are, but also open your eyes and don’t let that determine what your worth is.

Don’t let that steal or take you down that downward spiral.

Because I think a lot of people are in situations where they don’t feel that marketing is valued. And therefore then they are like, “Well, then I’m not valued.”

And what you’re saying is, no, there is a way out.

Lindsay Cournoyer: There is a way out.

There are companies out there who actually get it. They are very hard to find.

I’m working with a client right now where the CMO actually started in marketing. His first business was marketing services for a particular industry. And he gets it.

He’s taking these big brand swings. He just gave away a Tesla at a conference to draw people into the booth. It was amazing.

He’s leaning in and he’s super interested and he wants to input on strategy and jam on brand and marketing.

He’s like a unicorn. And they’re hard to find, but they are out there.

And when you find one, marketing becomes fun again.

I am having more fun working with him than I’ve had in quite some time. He just gets it.

So they do exist.

Brian Carroll: I like that phrase, fun. How can we get marketing back to fun? And what drew us to it?

A lot of people, I don’t know about you, but I didn’t go to school aspiring to move into B2B marketing. It was something I fell into, and then I just loved it because I love the complexity. I love the learning. I loved that there’s a variety of things.

Yes, you can get specialized, super specialized, but at the same time you have to have a bigger, more strategic view of things.

What are your thoughts on this?

Lindsay Cournoyer: I also didn’t know I wanted to be in B2B marketing, but I love it for all the same reasons that you do.

And it’s interesting. Again, in the post that I just wrote about this tax that marketers face, Chris Walker actually commented on it and said, this exists in tech, PE, VC-backed companies. And if you go work in a different industry, it’s a totally different game.

So that really got me thinking.

We all want to be in tech and we all want to be in SaaS. It pays well and it’s fast-paced. It can be fun. It can be brutal.

But what about thinking about other industries?

I was just contacted by a potential client whose business is in rocket science. And I was just like, my God, this is fascinating. How cool would it be to work on something like that?

Totally different.

So maybe another part of it is going to work in a different industry.

Brian Carroll: I wanted to ask to close, if a CMO or VP of marketing, a marketing leader, has an hour with their CEO this week to make the case for brand investment, what should they say? What advice would you give them?

Lindsay Cournoyer: I always like to bring it back to an example that they themselves will see themselves in.

Think about buying a new car. You want an electric vehicle. You’re going to look at Tesla, Polestar, I don’t know, all the other brands that now make electric vehicles. But when you think of electric vehicles, you think of Tesla first.

They own the category.

There you go. There’s the example of how they’ve done well because they are planted in people’s brains.

If you’re buying an EV, you’re buying a Tesla. Now there are more options, and we won’t get into the Tesla thing, but bring it back to an example and a scenario that they themselves have been in.

I think I’ve seen then the light bulb go on.

Brian Carroll: And if they’re proposing an idea or a bet, any thoughts you have on perhaps the smallest version of a bet if someone wants to move in this direction, but they haven’t won the credibility or trust yet to make that big bet?

Lindsay Cournoyer: I hate to say it, but sometimes you have to show results from performance marketing.

Be able to tie your activity to pipeline generation and revenue. And I feel like once you can clearly make the tie of how marketing is impacting on the revenue front, that really sometimes opens up the territory of brand.

Brian Carroll: Really good.

I think for people, we still need the big picture of what’s the impact we’re making on revenue, pipeline contribution, and using that as the basis to make the investment for things that aren’t going to show up in the dashboard.

What you’re saying is you’ve got to start with the dashboard, right?

Lindsay Cournoyer: Yes. Sales have to be there. And then you may get the shot.

And that’s what happened with me. I feel very grateful that I got to do a campaign like that.

Brian Carroll: Well, Lindsay, this is exactly the conversation I hoped it would be.

And for our listeners, if you have more questions or follow-up for Lindsay, Lindsay is doing work right now as a fractional CMO and brand consultant with LC Consulting. She works with B2B SaaS founders and leadership teams on brand strategy, messaging, and go-to-market.

If this episode was useful, please subscribe to The B2B Roundtable wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks again, Lindsay, for this great conversation.

Lindsay Cournoyer: Thanks so much, Brian. It was awesome to chat with you.