Margin Notes: Literary Adventures with Caroline Bicks

On the #amwriting podcast’s Margin Notes, host Jennie Nash talks with Caroline Bicks, Stephen E. King Chair in Literature at the University of Maine and co-host of the Everyday Shakespeare podcast, about her book Monsters in the Archives: A Year of Fear with Stephen King. Bicks describes how she became the first invited into King’s Bangor archives after King called to meet her, and how her sabbatical became a year of researching five formative works (including Carrie, Night Shift, The Shining, Salem’s Lot, and Pet Sematary) to understand how horror language creates lasting fear.

She explains choosing a first-person narrative that blends literary criticism, archival discovery, and her own anxiety, including eerie moments in the archive and insights into King’s word-level edits, literary influences, and Shakespearean foundations, especially The Shining’s ties to Hamlet.

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Read the Book

* Monsters in the Archivesby Caroline Bicks

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Welcome, everyone. This is Margin Notes, the part of the podcast where we’re talking about the big decisions writers face in their work and creative lives.

I’m here today with a super special guest. I’m so excited to speak with Caroline Bicks. She is the Stephen E. King Chair in Literature at the University of Maine, where she teaches courses in Shakespeare, early modern culture, and horror fiction. And she’s the author of all kinds of very cool books ... about Shakespeare, including one on cocktails.

Um, and, uh, is the co-host of the Everyday Shakespeare podcast, and we are here today to talk with her about her new book called [00:01:00] Monsters in the Archives: A Year of Fear with Stephen King. Welcome.

Caroline: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jennie: So this is gonna be the strangest interview you’ve probably ever done. I

Caroline: don’t know.

Because- I’ve talked to a lot of people around the world about this Stephen King book.

Jennie: I couldn’t read your book. I, I couldn’t read it. I can’t read horror. Yeah. Which listeners of this podcast are gonna laugh about, ‘cause I’m actually coaching someone live and they’re writing gothic horror, and they’re probably like, “All you talk about is horror, Jennie.”

But, um, it’s actually the reason why I wanted to talk to you, because you made a decision in the writing of this book that I thought was super cool. Mm. Which was you put yourself in it.

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: And you’re a scholar.

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: And you’ve written scholarly books, and you approach this with a scholarly perspective, but you, you really put yourself in it.

And, and so [00:02:00] I was reading it for that part of the story and I had to skip over huge chunks of, of the, of the work. Because what you’re doing in this book is you’re getting at this question of- W- what, what is scary in writing? Like, how does it actually work? How does it act- what is the magic or the function that makes us feel this thing?

And you actually feel it yourself while you’re going through it, and I found it quite terrifying actually. So, um, that’s kinda what I wanted to talk about is how did you make the decision? Well, first of all, you were the first person, I wanna make sure I get this right, ‘cause this is very cool. Yeah. You were the first person who was invited to the archives, the Stephen King archives.

Caroline: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s a bit of a story, so I won’t spend too much time on it, but just the mo- Oh, no, do. It’s good ... when I ch- when I took this position... So I’ve been a Shakespeare professor my whole adult life, ba- as soon as I graduated from grad school in the late ‘90s, [00:03:00] and I was at Boston College for 15 years.

I took this position at University of Maine nine years ago as a Shakespearean. Um, so it is an endowed chair in Stephen King’s name because he’s our most famous alum. So when I took the position, I, it was because I’m a Shakespearean, not because I’m a horror specialist. Um, I had always been a Stephen King fan since I read him when I was 12, and he scared the beje- Jesus out of me, um, with The Boogeyman story.

Jennie: Right.

Caroline: Um, so when I took this position though I was told, “You’re never gonna meet Stephen King. Don’t even make contact with him.” I’m like, “Fine, you know, this is still a great job. I’m excited.” Um- Thanks

Jennie: for the money. Yeah.

Caroline: Thanks for... You know, no, it’s a wonderful fund. It was funded by the Harold Alfond Foundation, and it’s to support the public humanities, which is an incredible mission.

So, um, I get to give money away to people. You know, it’s a great, great position, but I was not a horror specialist. And particu- a- and as an adult, I actually wasn’t reading horror because it scares me too much. You know? Yeah, yeah. Um, but it had grabbed me when I was a teenager. So it was about four years into the [00:04:00] job when I got a call at home from Stephen King, which just, uh, uh, my jaw hit the floor.

And he said, “You know, I think it’s time we meet.” I’m like, you know, I, I really fan-girled because I really, I have so much admiration for him and respect. Um, I invited him to come talk to our students. He was brilliant, generous, funny, kind, and I felt so at ease that I felt like I could ask... You know, and I got to know him professionally.

We had a good professional relationship that developed from there. When I had a sabbatical year coming up the next year- I could have written another Shakespeare book. I had another one in my head. I’ve written a bunch of them but I knew that he and Tabitha had just collected all of his manuscripts and put them in a climate-controlled space attached to their home in Bangor, and I thought, “You know, this is an incredible opportunity.

I would love to dig in there and be the first one in there, and just read those early drafts of the books that scared me so much when I was a teenager, and try to just explore why. Why were they sticking in my head still?” Um, again, I am not a specialist in... I’m not a cognitive scientist. I’m not a [00:05:00] specialist in horror literature, but I’m obviously highly trained in how to do literary analysis and how to do archival work, not Shakespeare, because we don’t have any of his works, but, you know, I, I understand what that process is.

So back to your question about why I wanted to bring myself into it, which was, you know, I had been experimenting with first-person storytelling after I got tenure. You know, ‘cause it’s a long process, Kate. Right. And most of my writing had been academic writing, but I really had always loved storytelling And I got a piece into the Modern Love column.

I started to have some success with publishing my first-person stories, and I was like, “You know, I love this.” So when I had this opportunity to go into his archives, they generously said yes, was amazing. I thought, “You know, I really wanna tell this story. I don’t wanna write an academic book. I want this to be the story of a literature scholar, but really the story about a scared kid.”

Jennie: Yeah.

Caroline: You know, you, you never lose that scare, you know, I don’t... This is the thing. Fear has stuck with me with those stories [00:06:00] for 40 years. So I was fascinated, and I just wanted to understand how he had crafted the language so that it was sticking in my head still. Because when I was talking to people around, you know, whenever you mention Stephen King to people, you know, if they’ve read him, they remember specific lines and specific words, and I was like, “That’s an extraordinary, um, 50 years on to have that power.”

So, um- Well- Anyway. Yeah. Go ahead. I, I could talk about this forever, so you tell me- Oh, no, it’s- ... where you wanted to pick up from this.

Jennie: It’s so good. Well, I have to tell you this funny anecdote, which is that my college roommate was from Bangor, Maine, and babysat his kids in that house.

Caroline: Oh, that’s insane.

Jennie: So when I went to visit her, she drove me by that house.

There you go. And I was like, “Oh, hell no- Yeah ... would I ever babysit in that house.” Like, it’s-

Caroline: It’s ‘cause it’s like a gothic, it’s like straight out of Haunting of Hill House ...

Jennie: actually, and like these spiderweb gates that, and you describe that in the [00:07:00] book and, and the- Yeah ... archives are in that house. They’re

Caroline: in the house.

They’re attached to the back. I know. And it, it was so, it was, it was insane. It was like a full-on 360 experience writing this book. Um, and I, I knew, like, so I did the research for a year. I didn’t even know if this would be a book. I just knew I wanted to have the opportunity to be in there because it, I knew it was a great opportunity, and I was so curious, you know?

Yeah. So I, I came out of the year with just tons of notes and observations, but I didn’t have a book, you know? Yeah. And then I started experimenting with writing a chapter, and I just, the storytelling just came forward and then when I got an agent and she, you know, s- I, I, I was able to get a contract based on a proposal and that one chapter I had written and I was really fortunate to have a fabulous editor, David Ebershoff, at Hogarth, who is just such a wonderful writer himself, and he really encouraged me to bring my voice in and bring my story in even [00:08:00] more.

Um, so that’s- And- ... that’s the story of that.

Jennie: Was it hard for you as a scholar to do that?

Caroline: You know what? It was so freeing and so fun that it actually wasn’t, you know? Because I, I knew this wasn’t going to be an academic book, so once I let go of that- Yeah ... um, I was like, wow, I have the, and yet I have this skill set I can bring forward, and I knew that’s what would make this unique.

Um, but I can combine my two favorite ways of writing, ‘cause I do actually love writing literary criticism. Like it’s, I get a thrill out of it. I wouldn’t be doing it this long if I didn’t get a thrill out of it, but I also love telling my own stories and drawing a reader in. And so for me it was like just a circus carnival.

Like it was so fun to be able to do it. Once I had the permission and I had a contract, I was like, fine, you know? I, I, who am I writing this book for? I’m writing it for me, you know? Like this is just something I wanna do because I’m so passionate [00:09:00] about it and I, and I love Stephen King. And, um, once I got into it that way and wasn’t thinking about who’s gonna criticize me for this, like how will academics view this, I was like, I don’t care.

I just don’t care. I know I’ve got a great story to tell that people are gonna love to read because there’s so many people that love not just Stephen King, but people who love reading about how great books get written, you know? Yeah. And so that was the audience I had in my mind when I, when I was crafting it.

It was really, in my mind, anybody who cares about books and writing. It doesn’t have to be... So when you say, you’re not the first person who’s said to me, “I can’t read your book,” or, “I can’t read-” Oh, I’m so glad. “... Stephen King books,” you know, and I’m like, “That’s okay. You can skip, you know, the parts that really scare you,” because there’s plenty about just like that first chapter I wrote about Pet Sematary, just his sticky notes back and forth with his copy editor, which is so fun I think.

You know, it’s just like, wow.

Jennie: Totally. Yeah. But the thing that you do is you- Allow yourself to confront that fear-

Caroline: Yeah ...

Jennie: [00:10:00] that, that I feel that the people can’t, that can’t read horror feel. You know, anybody that even allows themselves to be scared feels. And-

Caroline: Yeah ...

Jennie: and you, you do some very specific things, um, which I, I found fascinating, including tracking down on eBay the original copy of that book you read as a- Yeah, I wanted-

as a teenager.

Caroline: Yeah, that was part of the process for me, was I wanted to make sure I was reading... So before I would go into the archives for each work, and I’d spent like two... I only picked five, because I wanted to... First of all, I knew I wanted to make this personal. Um, and those were the five that scared me the most when I was a teenager.

So I grew up in the ‘70s and the ‘80s as a teenager, so for me, it was in real time when the books were coming out practically. So it was- Yeah ... Carrie, Night Shift, The Shining, Salem’s Lot, Pet Sematary. Um, I’m forgetting one of course. Uh, but I went -

Jennie: The other one.

Caroline: The other one. Had a huge impact on me. [00:11:00] So it was those five, and I, I knew those were the ones I was gonna do a deep dive into, and that I wanted to really re-engage with, and bring my whole self to.

So I wanted to find the copies that I had read in the ‘70s and the early ‘80s. And fortunately, it’s pretty easy to find them. Uh, so yeah, but eBay sometimes I had to go on, or go into a used bookstore and, you know, find the like actual 1979 paperback, you know.

Jennie: Um- I mean, that- Um ... I just, there’s some, there’s so much to say about that because-

Caroline: Yeah

Jennie: like, I just, um- We, we just had a new bookcase built, um, which is something I’ve wanted to do well for eight years in this house. But it’s a thing I’ve always wanted to have, which is like a grand bookcase, and it just was finished last week, and we had all the books packed up in storage, and we brought all the books back.

Then we went through this discernment process of what goes [00:12:00] on those shelves. And I, you know, I had all those books from when I was a kid, even when I was a kid-kid, and they’re yellow, and moldy and falling apart, and the covers aren’t on, and they’re taped and-

Caroline: Yeah ...

Jennie: eh, but I cannot let them go-

Caroline: Yeah ...

Jennie: because those...

that was the object.

Caroline: That’s the object. This is what I feel sad for kids now, because they’re not gonna have those same memories, um, of books. Yes. You know? And I don’t think they stick in your head the same way if you don’t have the full sensory embodied experience with a book.

Jennie: Right. You know? Even when you open...

I read on Kindle, which I love for so many reasons. Yeah. But you don’t even see the cover.

Caroline: You don’t see the cover, right. And for me, it’s so much. Like, I remember going to the Scholastic Book Fair and being like- Yes ... “I’m getting Summer of My German S- Soldier because Christy McNichol’s on the cover,” you know?

Yes. Yes. So yeah, that was part of the journey for me was I did wanna just [00:13:00] reconnect with those books again, try to h- and as much as you can, you know, reexperience the feelings of f- like The Shining, I actually... the only one I still have from 1977 is the actual Shining that I read. Um, and that’s, for me, that woman in room 217.

Well, I know you haven’t read it ‘cause you’re probably... What? But, um, it, that particular one I still have from, from when I was growing up. Um, and I love that I still have it, and it still has the photo... You know, it’s the version that has the photo inserts that includes the Kubrick film photos. Oh, okay.

Jennie: Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Caroline: And I read it before I saw the film, so I remember being- 15 reading it and then seeing the pictures and being like you know? And that’s part of the experience, but it wasn’t, it’s different than seeing the film, you know? And I really, I wanted to write this book as a love letter to language and to books, and not to film.

Like, there’s, that’s a whole other category I think that enters people’s brains in totally different ways. It’s a very different experience. For me it’s about, like going back to your original question [00:14:00] about like why, why, why do stories cause fear, and like what’s the value perhaps in that? Yeah. That was something I came to after this long journey really, and talking to people and thinking about why.

And also by understanding and reading more about Stephen King’s books and talking to him about them, and realizing for him how much these stories are rooted in personal experiences or fears of grief and loss. And- Yes ... that was really profound for me. And like The Night Shift, which is the ur-text that I start with, ‘cause that’s the one I read when I was 12, and that’s his first collection of short stories.

It came out in 1978. It’s 20 short stories. But he ends it with a story about his mother dying, and it’s, I mean, it’s thinly veiled autobiography. It’s about a man who’s watching his mother die in the hospital. Um, but it’s clearly a mirror of his own experience losing his mother when he was 26. And I’m like, wow, what’s that doing in a collection of horror stories?

[00:15:00] And it’s like, what? ‘Cause that is of course, at least for me and I think for a lot of people, that’s the core fear we first have, is that where’s mommy, right? Yeah. Right? You lose the person who’s in charge of taking care of you, and if you’re lucky, does it well and with care. Um, but even if it’s not, like Carrie, you know, the more I was looking through the Carrie drafts, I was like, right, he’s really homing in on Carrie calling out for her mother even though her mother’s terrible and abusive to her, right?

So it’s, there’s just this, I don’t know. It’s a long way around to say I think horror, and he writes about this really eloquently, is a way for us to metabolize our deepest fears. Um, and to look at trauma not head-on but sideways. Um, and he writes about that, um, a number of different places in a really powerful way.

He’s just such an extraordinary human. You know, he’s been thinking about this and for so long.

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. So, so your willingness to [00:16:00] confront that, those particular fear, fears in your own self and on behalf of the reader, really puts you in it. I mean, like you, there’s a really lovely moment where you are reading I think it’s, I think it’s Pet Sematary, reading the actual book, and you have to turn it over so you- Yeah

don’t see, like on your nightstand so you don’t see the cover. I’m

Caroline: scared, I’m scared of the cover, right, still.

Jennie: Yeah.

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: And then there’s moments, se- several where you’re driving And you’re sort of holding your breath while you drive past a place that he writes about or, or- Mm-hmm ... you know, um, well you have to tell the story, I’m sure every interviewer asks you about the, um, the doorknob in the archive.

You have to, like, I was-

Caroline: Yeah, not too many people have asked me about that, but I’m like, that to me was the scary moment-

Jennie: Wait, shut up ... the most, the

Caroline: most sturdy. I’m like, wh- uh, why did that happen? But of course, I mean, there’s a reason why it happened. It’s, it’s, it [00:17:00] automatically locks if, you know, the, if you- Okay

don’t lock it So let’s, let’s play- So but it just happened that we were inside the archive room. It was me and, and Julie Ugli, who is their assistant, who was helping me through this whole process. And I know, and I was, like, literally holding the first page of the first draft of The Boogeyman, the story that had scared me so badly when I was 12, about a monster that comes out of closets, and we’re like in this room.

And the, the archive room, it actually, it almost feels like a closet. It’s not huge at all. You know, it’s just-

Jennie: Yeah ...

Caroline: top to bottom, ceiling to floor stacked shelving with, you know, boxes of materials. And yeah, and we were in there, and I’m holding the first page, and the lock closes on its own. It just goes...

And I’m like, I’m looking at Julie, I’m like, “What is, what’s happening?” We don’t have our cell phones with us. I’m like, “Are we stuck in here? Like, what’s gonna happen?”

Jennie: In the scary archive- In this, I was terrified ... in the back of the scary house. Like-

Caroline: I know, I know. It was like, you can’t make this stuff up.

That’s why I was like, I [00:18:00] couldn’t wait, when I finally got a chance to write the book and sit down and write, I was like, I can’t wait to tell these stories, because they just... I, I’m not a fiction writer. Like, I, I have such mad respect for- I don’t know about that ... well, I’ve m- We’ll see I don’t know. I have mad respect for people who can write fiction.

For me, I only can write what I know and exper- So I’m like, ah. But these stories were just so amazing. Or like when I was reading The Shining, like the first draft of The Shining, which is crazy. I mean, it’s so different from the published version. And like getting to the woman in room 217, and like reading th- and literally my head w- like I thought I was having a stroke.

Like it was like, like... And it’s like, and then I find an interview where Stephen King writes about how he was scared to go back to that scene when he was revising it, the book, because he was dreading it. And I was like, oh, my God, have I just like had some kind of telepathic experience with Stephen King?

Like- Right ... across time, space, and yeah, it was amazing.

Jennie: Well, yeah. I mean, [00:19:00] it’s just, um, uh, I actually made myself go through the whole book skipping giant chunks.

Caroline: I feel so badly I put you through this.

Jennie: I know. I, I feel like why, I kept saying, “Why? Why did I think this was a good idea?” Um, and it- I mean, even just tangentially, I, I don’t know.

It’s interesting. I have, I’m sure you have this too, anybody who reads a lot or spends a lot of time with words, you have a capacity to sort of pay half attention, if that makes sense.

Caroline: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Um, like you c- could sort of look at it without letting it all the way in. Yeah. But I, I just was, I just was riveted by the thread of, of your story and your putting yourself through that as a scholar and a human.

But, but then some really cool things happen, and I, and I have flagged, um... Do you, [00:20:00] w- would you mind reading a tiny piece? It’s- No, not at all ... it’s on page 82, and it’s the p- the paragraph that starts, “These manuscripts.”

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: That would be amazing.

Caroline: Absolutely. So this is actually the moment I just described to you, where my head was like, I got...

Oh, actually, I had just discovered the last 150 pages of the original Shining manuscript in a random folder in the archives, and I was like, “What is this doing here?” And I was getting obsessive about the manuscripts at this point, clearly- Yeah. Yeah ... just like the main character in The Shining, Jack Torrance, who gets obsessed with the manu- with the papers in the basement of the Overlook Hotel.

But here we go. “These manuscripts are definitely getting into my head, and not just its rational part. In his memoir, when King describes books as being a uniquely portable magic, he doesn’t specify what kind of magic. What if manuscripts can absorb and store more than just ink and words? [00:21:00] What if their pages can pass on dark energy along with dark stories?

Ghosts have more than one way of making sure their stories are heard, of ensuring that the past is not forgotten, but rather pressed into our minds, even if we wrench our heads off the pillow and refuse to listen.” And that last is a reference to my, I used to see a ghost when I was five, and I write about that in the book too.

Jennie: I mean, when I read that, I was like, “That’s, that’s me.” Like, these ghosts and horrors are pressing themselves into my mind, and I’m refusing to listen, and they still, they still do. And, um, King’s stories in particular are so iconic, you can’t really escape them. Like, you, you know the scenarios, you know the characters, you know-

Caroline: Yeah

Jennie: you know. And, and so it was interesting for me reading this book that that described my [00:22:00] experience where I was both repelled and magnetized at the same time.

Caroline: That’s beautiful the way you just put that. I mean, I think that is exactly our relationship also, of course, to our own fears. You know, again, what makes these stories endure, and I didn’t go into this book thinking like, “This is a book about promoting Stephen King,” and, you know- Right

like, I don’t work for Stephen King. I just want to put that out there. Right. He, you know, he graciously agreed to let me go into the archives. He’s been very generous about answering all my questions I had about the manuscripts, but he never at any point was like, “You can’t say this,” or, “This is how you’re supposed to say this.”

So, but what I came away with after this process was exactly what you’re describing, why we need these stories, why they endure, actually, is because they tap into our very real human fears. It’s not about the monsters. It’s about the grief and loss that’s coming for all of us if we live long enough, you know?

So you, and you have to at some point confront that, you know? So if it’s- Yeah ... you can [00:23:00] try to run away from it, but it’s coming, and that’s part of being human. That’s the human experience, obviously. Not to be glib, but it’s like-

Jennie: Yeah ...

Caroline: you will experience loss. You will experience grief. And if these stories help you metabolize that or have a cathartic experience with that feeling without having to actually experience your worst fear, right?

Um, like Aristotle says, it’s cathartic, right? It’s you watch a play, a, a tragedy because you experience a catharsis.

Jennie: And did you, did you get to that in your own process?

Caroline: That’s a really good question. Um- You know, I, I think I became more aware of it. You know, I am, you know, and I write about this very openly in the book, that I was an extremely anxious little kid, um, which is part of why I think the boogeyman triggered me in the particular way it did, you know.

Um, and that I grew into a pretty [00:24:00] anxious adult, you know? Yeah. I think anxiety is one of those things that, you know, I... Again, I was born in the ‘60s, so we didn’t have this language for this back then. Like, my parents wouldn’t have known to call me an anxious child, you know? Right. They probably would’ve said, “Oh, she’s shy,” or, “She’s whatever.”

Um, so I think I, you know, like, and I as an adult, I think I’ve, I’ve found ways to manage it pretty well, but I am definitely a control freak. Like, that’s part of how I manage it. I shouldn’t use that language, but you know, it’s like I, I like to just control what I can control, and that makes me feel that I can put the anxiety at bay.

So I will say I think it’s been interesting for me, Nick, now when I have those moments that are my worst fear moments that sometimes still will creep up on me just even though when I think I’ve figured it out, like doom s- doom scenarios. I tend to go to doom scenarios. So, like, if I can’t reach... Uh, I will say Life360 has been, like, the best invention on the planet for me-

with my two kids [00:25:00] and my husband. I’m like, “I know exactly where everyone is.” Yeah. It has saved me a lot of worry. Sometimes Life360 doesn’t work, or sometimes a person still doesn’t answer the phone, and then I have to manage my anxie- And then it’s like... So I will say it’s been interesting going through this process and having to confront or revisit the core of what scares me and, like, why that impacts, you know, why certain moments come forward for me still.

So I think, yeah, I think it has helped me to a degree. Like, I can recognize it more clearly now. I’m like, “Oh, right, that’s why I’m scared of that,” you know? Um-

Jennie: That’s so cool.

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: And it feels like that’s the, the, um, the transformation in the book is you’re exploring how that actually works and the language and the stories.

Mm-hmm. But you’re, you’re also exploring how it works in your own self, how it did when you were young, how it does now- Yeah ... these moments when you’re scared. So it- Mm-hmm ... there’s such [00:26:00] a depth to it and, I mean, I just, uh, even in my half reading of it, I just loved it. Thank you. And, um, there’s something that happens That’s kind of crazy, which is, so you’re a Shakespeare scholar

Caroline: Mm-hmm

Jennie: And I ha- I, I know from reading Steve, a- about Stephen King, from reading his book On Writing, of course, and, um, interviews and such that, uh, I’m, I’m probably gonna say this in a disrespectful way, and I don’t mean it to be so, but the, the easiest way I can describe it is that he’s always had sort of a chip on his shoulder that he’s just a popular writer and not taken seriously in a literary way.

Mm. I don’t know if that’s, if that is fair to say, but that’s how I’m saying it. Uh,

Caroline: yeah.

Jennie: And, um, what, what I found incredible was that [00:27:00] here comes this Shakespeare scholar into his archives doing proper scholarly archiver, arch- archival work, and there’s this moment when you begin to see Shakespearean themes in his, in his work, and you can’t ignore it, and particularly in, in Carrie and- Yeah

particularly around exactly the thing you were wrestling with, which is like a young girl’s- I don’t know, sense of, of not being fitting in the world or, um-

Caroline: Yeah ...

Jennie: right? And so that, um, there’s, on page, since you have the book in your hand, um, I think it’s page

Caroline: 202. Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And it refers back to that passage you just read about portable magic.

It’s the one that’s I remembered.

Caroline: [00:28:00] Right. Okay. So this is going back to when I first was, um, I was in the final round of the job for the Stephen E. King Chair in Literature, and I was working on a book about Shakespeare’s, the girls in Shakespeare’s plays and world and teenage girls and their cognition.

Like, the how were people during Shakespeare’s day thinking about girls’ brains? Yeah. So I’d been working on this for 10 years. Um, and then I was getting ready to give my job talk. This was the first time Stephen King and Shakespeare came together for me, and it was getting ready, and this, again, this is an authentic story, like write what you know.

So I was getting ready for the job talk. I remembered that King’s 1974 novel, Carrie, featured a 16-year-old girl whose telekinetic powers are unleashed when she gets her first period in the school shower. I started rereading it, and within a few pages came across an uncanny phrase. When she’s walking home after being dismissed early, Carrie feels her brain flexing in a new way, [00:29:00] as if her powers have been waiting below the surface for her to reach, quote, “mental puberty.”

I couldn’t have wordsmithed this dynamic cognitive change better myself. In the last part of my job talk, I used the phrase to connect the brain work of Juliet Capulet, who’s described as being two weeks away from seeing the change of 14 years, to Carrie’s newly activated adolescent mind. It felt like a moment of pure portable magic between Stephen King, Shakespeare, and me.

Jennie: Ugh, so beautiful.

Caroline: Oh, thank you. Yeah. I mean, that was just so gobsmacking. Like, when that happened, I was like, I ca- I can’t believe it, but yeah.

Jennie: And then, now I may be getting some of the things wrong here, but then you- You realize, is it Carrie that, that you realize he was, you thought he was emulating a play, a Shakespeare play?

Caroline: I think you’re thinking of Shining. I mean, definitely at the end of the Carrie [00:30:00] chapter I return to, I did notice echoes of Macbeth, and I was convinced that that must have been what he was thinking about. And, and what’s funny is, so one of the conversations I got to have with him, I mean, he’s so generous with his time, one of my last conversations with him was about the end of Carrie, and that’s a book that he actually doesn’t like very much.

You know, it was his first published novel, he was 26, and he’s like, “I think that was written by a young man who thought he knew more than he did.” So he’s, it’s not a book that he goes back to. He recognizes it’s important, and it’s important to him, but, ‘cause it started his whole career, his whole trajectory.

Um, but he didn’t particularly, he hasn’t returned to it. Yeah. So that was a fun chance for me to sort of talk to him and say, “Hey, you know what? I think you should maybe go back,” ‘cause it’s it’s, there’s a lot of Shakespeare in there. Anyway, but the Shining chapter, what was fascinating, so there’s this first draft, which I, I write a lot about, called The Shine, that’s in the archives, with a totally different ending.

Um, and when I looked at it, [00:31:00] he’d also divided it into acts and scenes, like Roman numeral acts and little- Mm ... Roman numeral scenes. And I was like, “This, what is this? This is like a Shakespeare play.” Like, that’s what it looked like. And then sure enough, I found out he was imagining, he was thinking of a Shakespeare tragedy when he wrote The Shining.

And that was the first moment where I was like, “What? This is insane.” Like, this- Yeah ... like, ob- obviously that became, for me, the story I wanted to tell about that particular set of manuscripts, was sort of uncovering, like, what’s the Shakespeare play? Like, what’s the tragedy? And I didn’t wanna ask him because I didn’t want- I wanted to go in with my mind clear, like, of any outside influence.

I just wanted to see what my Shakespeare brain, because I’m so embedded in Shakespeare. I also have a Shakespeare podcast I do with my best friend. Like, we’re, I’m always thinking about Shakespeare and how it relates to everyday life. You know, and so I’m like, “Well, how does it relate to The Shining?” Which is, like, an ur-American text.

Like, this, like, say what you want about horror, [00:32:00] like- I’d be shocked if people don’t know what The Shining’s about, even if they haven’t read it even if they haven’t seen the film. Like, you probably know something about The Shining, right? Right. So I was like, if there’s a Shakespeare tragedy at the foundation of this, you know.

And here’s the thing about Stephen King that I came to learn, again, reading all of his notes and finding these edits, and I did find traces of Macbeth in the first draft of The Shine, um, that he ended up taking out. So I was like, “Oh, is it Macbeth? It feels like it could be Macbeth.” There’s so many things it has in common with it, with hallucinations and with baby bashing.

And, you know, all of these horrible things that are in Macbeth are certainly in that book. Um, but I really wanted to go in, like, just on an adventure, like, see what I saw. So I didn’t ask him which chi- tragedy until I was fully done with all my research and I felt like I had it all done. And that’s when he drops that he was thinking of Hamlet.

And once he said that, of course, it became so ... I mean, I [00:33:00] had seen traces, there were references to Ophelia that also didn’t make it into the final published draft. So you wouldn’t know this. This is the beauty of archival work, like you’re gonna see things that other people will never know about unless you tell the story.

That’s why I felt so passionate about this. Like, “I need to tell people-” Yeah ... “that Ophelia was in the first draft, that he was thinking of Ophelia.” ‘Cause of course, you know, again, even if you don’t know The Shining, the woman in the tub, the woman in the bathtub, like a drowned woman in a tub, like ah, Ophelia.

Yeah. Like Ophelia’s another one of those ur, like she’s so, she’s such a part of our cultural air, right? I mean, like no matter what country you’re in. Right. There’s a reason Taylor Swift has a whole, you know, song The Fate of Ophelia. Like people know what that means. Um, so I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is, this is incredible.

This is even deeper than I thought it was gonna be.” Um, but also it made me appreciate how much that book is about intergenerational trauma. Um, and it’s not ... So he doesn’t like the Kubrick film [00:34:00] for reasons that, you know, a couple different reasons. One is that it flattens out the character of Jack Torrance, and Jack Torrance is an abused child himself, and he passes on that abuse to his son, Danny, right?

Um, but you wouldn’t know that from Kubrick’s film. While Hamlet, of course, is about a father’s ghost coming forward. Like, “The past is a ghost,” King writes, which is so f- powerful, right? Um, here’s this ghost saying, “You need to kill for me.”

Jennie: Yeah.

Caroline: Yeah. And that’s what happens to Jack. Yeah, so anyway, that’s a long way to say that was

Each chapter was my favorite in different ways, but that one I loved being able to do the deep Shakespeare dive.

Jennie: And was that ... You know, so I started that question by saying I, I had heard or understood or maybe inferred that, um, you know, King himself had this sort of desire- Okay ... to be taken more seriously.

Was that, that must have been, I don’t know, powerful for both you and him, uh, to [00:35:00] come to that? Not like, “Oh, you’re the only person that’s ever made him feel that way” or-

Caroline: Yeah,

Jennie: no,

Caroline: I agree ... or agree with that, but. Like I, yeah. And, um, I mean, I will say I think part of the reason he was always really ... I mean, first of all, he’s just so generous, and any writer who’s ever worked with him has the same experience.

Like he just gives his time. He just loves writing and writers so much that he will just, he’ll just t- like any email I would send him, he’d write back in like an hour with a response. The part about how he feels about academia, you know, and I never directly asked him that because I didn’t wanna ... You know, if he wanted to bring it up, great.

But I think- Yeah ... my, after going on this journey with him, he clearly loves talking about- literature. He’s the most well-read person I’ve ever met. I’m just gonna say that hands down. Like, the guy reads- Really? ... cons- constantly and if you read his early works, like even when he was 17, he wrote The Long Walk, okay, which just came out as a film, [00:36:00] and in that, he’s citing T.S.

Eliot, he’s cit- he’s citing Poe at 17. Okay? So he’s, he, he, this, he comes by this honestly. He’s not just trying to seem smart. Like, he literally is constantly reading and it’s clear when you read his manuscripts or when you read his published books, he’s making references to all, whether it’s Shirley Jackson or Wallace Stevens or, you know, uh, he’s so capacious in his knowledge of literature.

And, like, just a couple months ago, he sent me an email, I don’t, I can’t remember, we were talking about something about Salem’s Lot, and he was like, “Yeah, when I was writing Salem’s Lot,” which again, this is 1975 when he’s writing Salem’s Lot, so that’s a long time ago. He’s like, “I was really into James Dickey’s poetry.”

Jennie: Whoa.

Caroline: You know, who was an American no, you know, poet laureate. Uh, he’s like, “And I was reading everything I could read of, of his and then I read Deliverance, and then I went back to his poetry, and that really impacted how I wrote the chapters [00:37:00] about the Lot,” which if you’ve read Salem’s Lot, has some very lyrical, poetic chapters about the town, like, “The town knew about darkness.

The town had its secrets and knew how to kept it.” And then he, like, sends me the entire poem that he was thinking about that James Dickey wrote. So I mean, it’s, he’s, and it’s not performative. He’s not, like, he has nothing. He doesn’t need to prove anything to me, you know?

Jennie: Right, to anyone, yeah.

Caroline: He just literally loves, he loves literature.

Like, this guy, he loves poetry. I mean, he actually writes poetry. He wrote poetry as an undergraduate. Uh, it was actually the core start for him of The Stand, was a poem he wrote called The Dark Man one day when he was, like, hungover in the school, like, cafeteria. Like, so it’s like he, he’s been thinking about literature and living with literature and, uh, since he was a teenager, if not earlier.

His mom brought him, uh, Bram Stoker out of the public library when he was nine, so I mean, the guy- Whoa ... ‘cause he asked for it. He asked for Dracula. [00:38:00] I wasn’t reading Dracula when I was nine. Were you? I mean-

Jennie: No,

Caroline: no. I was reading Little House on the Prairie. I mean-

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Wow. So- I mean, this book, again, it’s called Monsters in the Archives: My Year of Fear with Stephen King by Carolyn Bicks.

It’s just incredible, whether you’re a King fan, whether you’re a horror fan, um, but for sure for all writers, which are all our listeners. If you can, if you can bear it.

It’s very specific, um, a very specific- specific exploration of, of how good writing works really. Yeah. Right. And, and how you... You know, there’s always that perennial question of how do you get emotion on the page? How do you make your reader feel something? And you, you show it very specifically, and I wanted so badly [00:39:00] to, to get into the details, and I, and I, I just, I just couldn’t.

Um, maybe someday, but, um, I just, I just can’t recommend it enough for, for, um, this audience and, um, you know, anyone who’s interested in any of these things we’ve talked about.

Caroline: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I will say, like, the Pet Sematary chapter, which is the first one, that was the first day I was in the archives.

One of the things I discovered about him day one was how much attention he pays to word sounds. So I think for any writer interested in sort of doing a deep dive into, like, how one word change, right- Yeah ... can make a difference, you know? Yeah. And I didn’t appreciate that about his writing until I went in there and saw his notes to the copy editor where he’s like, “Nope, the word’s clitter, not clatter.

This is why.” You know? Like,

Jennie: he’s- There’s a, um- Yeah ... yeah, there’s a book I love, it’s probably right behind me, um, called The Artful Edit by Susan Bell, in which she [00:40:00] shows examples of that kind of very careful change in, um, The Gre- The Great Gatsby and The English Patient and various works of, of literature, and your, your whole book is like that.

It’s, it’s just amazing. Um- Thank you ... so is the next book gonna be the Shakespeare one you had thought of before? Or are you gonna- ... go in the, in the personal direction?

Caroline: You know, it’s such a good question. I think right now I’m just taking a break, you know, because I’m the kind... Like, I immerse myself in a project, and this has been so all-consuming.

Um, and I’m back to doing my Everyday Shakespeare podcast, which I love and I missed. Um, so I’m doing that. And I, I really don’t like to think too far ahead about what I’m going to write. I like to have it come organically.

Jennie: Yeah.

Caroline: Um, so I could go back into the archives. I could write another one of these kinds of books, but I don’t know if that’s the [00:41:00] right thing for me right now.

Jennie: Yeah.

Caroline: Um, I want to make sure whatever I write next- You know, I loved writing this book so much. It’s my favorite... I mean, it’s, it was such a powerful experience for me, um, because I could bring my personal experiences into it and my scholarly self into it. I don’t... You know, it’s gonna be hard to recreate that.

Yeah. I think it can be done, but I don’t wanna force it. Yeah. So I’m gonna wait and see what the next, what the next one

Jennie: is. Don’t you, don’t you love the interviewer who’s like, “Hey, congratulations. You wrote a book. What, what’s your next

Caroline: one?” What are you working on now? What are you doing now? I know. And I get that.

I’m like-

Jennie: So mean ...

Caroline: I’m just, I’m just reading books I wanna read. I’m doing my laundry. I’m getting to know my dog again. You know?

Jennie: Oh, wow. Well, thank

Caroline: you. But, you know, it’s a fair question. Yeah.

Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for coming and chatting about this, and for writing such a cool book. And- Thank you ... um, I’m looking forward to seeing what you do next.

Caroline: Thank you, Jennie. It was a [00:42:00] pleasure.

Jennie: Well, for our listeners, until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.

The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work

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