Climate and Electrical Solutions with Katie Pfennigs

A conversation with Katie Pfennigs, who is the Director of External Affairs and Energy Services at the Flathead Electric Cooperative. This episode was recorded in May 2024.

Headwaters is created by Daniel Lombardi, Gaby Eseverri, Peri Sasnett, and Madeline Vinh.

Glacier Conservancy: glacier.org/headwaters Frank Waln music: www.instagram.com/frankwaln/ Stella Nall art: www.instagram.com/stella.nall/

Climate change in Glacier: www.nps.gov/glac/learn/nature/climate-change.htm

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Lacy: Headwaters is brought to you by the Glacier National Park Conservancy.

Peri: This is Headwaters, a show about how Glacier National Park is connected to everything else. My name is Peri, and I'm speaking into a microphone pretty much entirely powered with renewable electricity. That's because the Pacific Northwest has a lot of big hydroelectric dams, but also because Glacier has been installing rooftop solar to supplement the power we draw from the grid. This episode is part of our Climate Conversations series about how the world is being altered by the burning of fossil fuels. Over the past century and a half, human activity has emitted enough greenhouse gases to warm the Earth's climate more than one degree Celsius, with more warming on the way. Daniel has been sitting down with experts to talk about how that warming is altering Glacier National Park, our lives and our futures. Like a lot of places, we are transitioning away from fossil fuels here at the park. That means swapping fossil fuel appliances and vehicles with electric alternatives. [mellow beat beginsto play ] As you'll hear in this episode, this is not an easy transition. To do it, we're going to need a lot more electricity -- something like three times more than we currently generate in America. But according to the nonprofit Rewiring America, the good news is that because electricity is so much more efficient, will only need about half as much energy as we're currently using. These climate conversations don't have to be listened to in any order. Each one stands on its own. This one was recorded in the spring of 2024 when my co-host, Daniel, talked with Katie Pfennigs from Flathead Electric Co-op, which is the organization that provides power to the west side of the park. I think I might have learned more from this one than any other in the series, so I hope you enjoy it.

Daniel: Welcome to Headquarters. We're going to talk about climate and electricity and electrical solutions to climate change. Could you introduce yourself? And I'm curious what you like about your job at Flathead Electric Co-op.

Katie: Sure. I'm Katie Pfennigs. I am the community relations manager at Flathead Electric Co-op. It's a lot of fun.

Daniel: Yeah. What do you think's kept you there for almost a decade?

Katie: You know, I grew up in the Flathead. I came back after my undergraduate work, and I just-- I love this area. I love this community. And working at a co-op is so community based. Really, it's just it just feels like a way for me to to have a really positive and significant impact on the community that I love.

Daniel: Yeah, say more about that. What is an electric co-op?

Katie: So kind of a unique, a unique business model. But a cooperative is actually owned by all of the members that we serve. So if you pay a bill to Flathead Electric for your electricity, you are in fact, an owner of the co-op. There is no-- no profit. There are no shareholders. So really, it's just a really neat way to operate a business. Very, very member centric.

Daniel: So nationally there are for-profit electric companies, I assume?

Katie: Yes.

Daniel: And they they create electricity and send it to their customers in order to generate a profit. But that's not what Flathead electric Co-op does.

Katie: Exactly.

Daniel: It's community owned.

Katie: Exactly. Yes. Yep. We were, you know, when we we were very first started it was during the time right after the Rural Electrification Act, which, you know, that act was landmark legislation that that really changed the way that rural America looked in that it provided opportunities for some of the rural parts of our country that had no access to electricity. You know, Flathead Electric is is like all other co-ops in that we had a group of farmers who who came together and pooled resources and got some funding through the Rural Electrification Act to start Flathead Electric Co-op and started very, very small. And we've grown today to serve just over 58,000 members.

Daniel: So the Rural Electrification Act, REA, it was a New Deal, Great Depression-era program. 1936.

Katie: Yes. And then Flathead Electric was was founded in 1937. Following that.

Daniel: My understanding was basically rural areas like this one, like Montana, there wasn't enough money to be made for for-profit electric companies to string power lines out to ranches and small towns.

Katie: You've got it. Yeah. At the time. At the time, a lot of people thought that electrifying the rural parts of our country just was not economically feasible or just could not happen. So it did take legislation to accomplish that, that goal.

Daniel: Wow. And now so that was it was about 90 years ago. And Flathead Electric Co-op has been here ever since then.

Katie: We have. And we've grown and, you know, since then went through a fairly large acquisition. And and we're somewhat unique in that we don't only serve rural areas. A lot of the co-ops in the country just serve the the rural areas, the outskirts of the the municipalities. But Flathead Electric actually serves the municipal areas of, you know, Kalispell, Whitefish, Columbia Falls, Bigfork, and then all the way up to Libby as well, which does make us a little bit unique in the co-op world and also contributes to us being the largest co-op in in the state of Montana by a long shot and second largest utility to Northwestern Energy that's an investor owned utility.

Daniel: Okay. Do you think Flathead Electric, is it also a an energy utility? Is that the category you'd put it in or is that a little different?

Katie: I would put us in the category of an electric utility.

Daniel: Okay.

Katie: Energy really is a much broader concept than electricity. You know, energy really is just the ability to to do work. And electricity is a form of energy where you're taking that work and running it through some sort of a generation facility, you know, whether that's hydropower, so-- which is what powers most of our area, you're right. But that's, you know, taking that that running water, that motion and running it through a hydroelectric dam to generate electricity and then transmitting that to power homes to do a different type of work. Right? In homes and businesses.

Daniel: Yeah. Okay. Here in Glacier, we are then dealing with multiple utilities because we use we're using propane or using natural gas often to heat our buildings. But then we're working with Flathead Electric Co-op. We're getting electricity to run our computers and turn the lights on and everything.

Katie: You know, when someone has access to natural gas, typically that's what they're using for their home, home heating and water heating, which are the two biggest users of electricity or energy in a home, and then the park is very similar. So you might have electrically powered lights and outlets and, you know, whatever whatever else your needs are that aren't hooked to natural gas, aren't hooked to propane.

Daniel: Yeah, exactly. We have a combination of both in Glacier. And one of the downsides to that is that there's quite a bit more greenhouse gas emissions associated with burning fossil fuels like gas and propane. But before we get into that, a big thing that you deal with then is the grid. What is the grid?

Katie: Right. So the grid, if we're just talking about the physical grid, is everything from the generating facility -- so again, I'll use hydropower as as my example here because that's the world I live in. And so everything from the hydroelectric dam, And then that power is then transmitted, right? You have to always have to get power from where it's generated to where it's needed. And the way that that's done is through the rest of the grid, which is a transmission system of of high voltage transmission lines and then a series of substations and transformers that transform that, that high-voltage electricity into a lower voltage that can be carried over a series of distribution lines. And that's what Flathead Electric does as a-- we're a distribution co-op. So we build the distribution system, which is the part of the grid that carries it carries that power to homes and businesses in our service area where that power is again stepped down. So that it can be served right into your your home or your business or whatever that need may be. So there's another another step in that grid.

Daniel: Okay.

Katie: So everything from the generating facility through the transmission system in the substations and then our distribution system and right to where it gets to your your home would be considered the grid.

Daniel: Well, then let's go to the first step in that process. Generation, electrical generation around here, we have several hydroelectric facilities and like regionally, there's a lot of hydroelectric power. So where does Flathead Electric get its electricity?

Katie: Yeah. So the vast majority of our power comes from the Bonneville Power Administration, which is the federal power marketing agency that was formed to market the power coming from federal projects. Most of those federal projects are the federal Columbia River Hydropower System, which is a series of 31 federal hydro projects all throughout the Columbia River Basin, including two that happen to live right in our service area, right? The one I drove by as I was coming up here, Hungry Horse Dam, is what most people are familiar with in our area, but we also serve-- our service area goes up to Libby Montana, which is where the Libby Dam is located. And both of those are federal hydro projects. So, yes, that power is generated by those dams and then a series throughout the rest of the Columbia River basin all the way out to the Pacific Ocean. So everywhere between here and here and there, Idaho, Washington, Oregon.

Daniel: So for the most part, most of the electricity used at least on the west side of Glacier National Park, it's coming from hydroelectric facilities.

Katie: Yes. Well, all the electricity, I mean, really almost all the electricity purchased from Flathead Electric specifically would be coming from those hydroelectric facilities. Yes.

Daniel: But that said, there are wires that all connect to a greater grid that's regionally greater and I suppose even nationally larger.

Katie: Yes. So we are we're part of-- from the transmission system perspective, we're part of what's called the Western Interconnect. And that's really... Most of the Western United States is all interconnected through a giant transmission system. And that allows us to balance the grid, which is obviously very important. You have to to keep the lights on. You have to have the supply of electricity and the demand for electricity have to match up exactly at any given minute to keep the grid in balance. And so having, you know, more of that interconnection helps us regionally do more of that.

Daniel: And on that larger grid than there are lots of generating facilities. There's coal plants and not just hydro, there's solar, there's all kinds of things, right? But locally we can say that pretty much all the electrons we're getting here are from hydroelectric.

Katie: Yeah, I would say I think it's about 85% of our power mix is, you know, those large hydro projects. We've also got, Bonneville also markets a nuclear project, which is about 10% of our portfolio. But overall, yes, Flathead Electric's power mix is 96% carbon free, which is it's just really great for our service area. We're very, very proud of that.

Daniel: That's cool.

Katie: Yeah, we have developed a few local generation projects. They're fairly small projects, but they're still just a great addition to our power mix and locally generated power, which is pretty exciting. So we've got two existing community solar projects and then one that we'll be breaking ground on early this summer. Actually, we're just in the final stages of selling the generation from that project. And then we've also got a landfill gas to energy. So it's methane, taking the methane gas that is produced at a landfill and turning that into electricity. And then we've also got partnership with Stoltza here for a biomass generator. We purchase the power that is created at that facility, and we've got a couple of partnerships for some small hydro projects within our service area as well. And then more and more we're seeing, you know, our members are also joining us as part of the of the generation mix in that they're generating some of their own power as well, not unlike the park up here with the with the solar panels and small hydro projects that exist here. [mellow beat begins to play]

Daniel: Yeah, we've got solar panels on this rooftop right here.

Katie: You do. [beat finishes playing, marking the transition]

Daniel: Well, we're lucky then, here at Glacier National Park because we're looking for electricity that comes without much or any greenhouse gas emissions. So we're really lucky that we have solar here, but we have that most of the electricity where we're getting is relatively carbon-free coming from hydroelectric systems.

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. We're very, very fortunate to have access to the federal hydro system, not only as, you know, hydropower, non-carbon generating resource, but it's also an extremely affordable and reliable, you know, most importantly, as we as, we start to look at significant resource adequacy concerns on our our grid as a whole, that reliability piece is really critical. And what makes it reliable is the ability to ramp it up and down instantaneously to meet the demand that's on the system, right? So we talked about that supply and demand having to be in constant balance and hydropower allows us to keep that in balance as well.

Daniel: So the other great thing about hydro is that it's like the gas- or the coal-fired power plants that are adjustable in that you can pretty easily adjust the amount of electricity you're you're creating and that it's creating electricity, whether it's dark out, whether it's winter or summer. There are real baseload source of electricity.

Katie: Yeah, it's an incredible resource. My favorite by far and, you know, completely renewable. Obviously, the water continues to go through the river and, and it rains and snows again, and it melts, and it-- and the whole system starts over. And yes, we can ramp it up. We can ramp it down to meet expected loads. So, I mean, really, it's kind of the original renewable. Yeah, that's what I like to refer to it as.

Daniel: So hydro is a really important part of the electric transition. It's really important. Part of our solution to climate change really is, you know, getting us a lot of baseload electricity that's relatively carbon free. That said, there are some downsides. We don't want to dam every river for a lot of reasons.

Katie: Right, yes.

Daniel: And that, you know, a lot of the good hydro spots are taken. They're established. It's not like we can just scale up hydro very easily anymore.

Katie: No, we're not going to be building any more large hydro projects. I mean, it's very difficult to site any generation project. But yes, I don't see us-- I don't see us doing that.

Daniel: Yeah. Because then as we're-- as Glacier, as the country, as the region is looking to get more and more of our electricity from sources that don't release greenhouse gases that warm the climate, we are going to need more electricity and less natural gas, less propane, that kind of thing. So there's only so much hydro we can build. So we have, there's some other resources like solar and wind. Let's compare that then to the landfill gas. What do you call that?

Katie: Yes. Landfill methane gas to energy plant.

Daniel: How does that one work?

Katie: So in that case, we are-- we've actually got wells drilled at the landfill. So they're like vertical and horizontal pipes that run through the the trash itself, because methane gas is is generated by all of our garbage. Right. And that's what typically what gets flared off at a landfill. That's where you see the flares. They're burning off that methane because you don't want to put methane straight, methane into the atmosphere. Right.

Daniel: So as the garbage, as the-- as our trash...

Katie: Decomposes.

Daniel: It releases methane, which is a powerful greenhouse gas. Either way, whether you burn it off or just release it, you are releasing greenhouse gases. Yeah. But the idea is you might as well, if you're releasing it, you might as well get some electricity from it.

Katie: So you're actually able to extract that gas out of the landfill through the the piping system, vacuum it out and run it through. Cleaning process and then through a very large generator that's right there on the facility that's interconnected into our grid. And we can produce electricity literally from our trash, which is pretty amazing.

Daniel: Yeah, that's interesting. Lots of the Flathead Electric Co-op members have solar panels on the roof, including us, including in this building. That's great. What are the downsides to that? I mean, the upside is that it creates electricity for free from the sun with pretty much no greenhouse gases. Yeah, it's good for the climate, but we maybe live in a climate, you know, that's it's like it's very cloudy.

Katie: You're looking outside at the cloudy, cloudy, rainy day, right? [laughing].

Daniel: Yeah.

Katie: I the challenge with with solar and wind is really in its intermittency.

Daniel: Meaning it it's not happening all the time. It's not always sunny.

Katie: Yeah. And so we're able to produce a lot of electricity actually. You know, in some cases when you look to the California market, for instance, they're producing way too much, right? So that creates a whole another challenge. They're producing way too much solar when they don't don't need it. But the difficulty, you know, especially when you look at at our area, is that when we need power most to meet like that instantaneous load at peak load, typically there is almost no solar energy being produced and the wind is typically not blowing in those cases either.

Daniel: So is that because our peak loads are like at dawn and dusk when it's not as bright out?

Katie: Exactly. Or they're happening-- you know, we're a winter peaking facility or winter peaking utility, which means that our peak load happens in the winter months. And those-- our daylight hours are short, right?

Daniel: Yeah.

Katie: So almost all of our winter peaks happen in the dark. You know, from a utility planning standpoint, what we're concerned about are only really the peaks. It really isn't that we don't have enough electricity, we don't have an electricity shortage -- we have an electricity shortage during our peaks. And it's not just a shortage of power. It's also a shortage of the transmission that we need to get power from one place to another. Our system's historical peak load that we've ever hit just happened in January during that extraordinarily cold snap, right? Mid January. None of us are going to forget that one.[chuckles] And we hit, you know, what, -40?

Daniel: It was cold.

Katie: It was cold! And we I mean, our system was really it was pushed to the brink. And not just, you know, our system, but regionally. We were we were pushed to the brink of what we have to meet those peaks from a transmission and generation standpoint. And that's pretty scary as we start talking about, you know, resources going away that are helping us meet those peak demands and replacing those resources with something that wasn't generating any power when we needed it. Right then, there was no wind and no solar being generated when we hit that peak.

Daniel: So we're in kind of a bind with climate change, in that globally, there's a tremendous need to reduce our emissions that come from generating electricity through gas and coal power plants. But on the other hand, global warming is not significant enough in Montana that we don't still have cold snaps, that it's not still dark and cold in the winter. So we still need electricity when...

Katie: We do [laughs]. We do. It's it is a challenge. And, you know, I think ultimately most of us all want the same thing. Right? But the how we get there is the challenge. And from a utility planning perspective, it's definitely a concerning time as we look at what this transition is going to look like and not only from a again, a reliability perspective, but how do we keep electric rates affordable with the amount of generating resources and transmission infrastructure that needs to be built to support the load growth expected in our region? I -- it keeps me up at night.

Daniel: So one of the challenges you're describing is that we are phasing out things like coal and natural gas because.

Katie: Yes, those "always on" resources, right?

Daniel: Yeah, those have a lot of greenhouse gas emissions associated with them, a lot of air pollution associated with them. So in many ways this is a good transition to be making. But the problem is at the same time we're increasing the amount of electricity we need.

Katie: Yes. So that's that's a challenge.

Daniel: That's a challenge.

Katie: No matter how you look at it. That's a challenge that we have to overcome. Right?

Daniel: And that we're increasing the need, partly because we're building data centers, we're building like, server farms, but also just population growth is increasing.

Katie: Yeah.

Daniel: People are plugging more things in. On top of that, on sort of the user end, there is an electrification transition happening, where people are electrifying their weed eaters and lawnmowers.

Katie: Yep.

Daniel: They're electrifying their cars. All of these have really positive effects as well. Like there's a lot of air pollution and greenhouse gases associated with those tools.

Katie: Right.

Daniel: Those small two stroke engines generate a lot of greenhouse gas emissions. They generate a lot of air pollution. It's great to electrify them. Plus they're quieter and more efficient.

Katie: A lot of people like them a lot better. Right?

Daniel: Yeah. But that increases the need for more electricity on the grid.

Katie: You've got it.

Daniel: Another thing then, I guess, is locally, solar can't fill in all the gaps. Wind can't fill in all the gaps. We've got hydro. That's great. But we can't fill in all the gaps with other renewables. If we zoom out and look at a bigger region, you know, our region or nationally, you could imagine that we could get solar electricity from Arizona when we're having a cold snap here in Montana. But it's not that simple, right?

Katie: It's not that simple.

Daniel: What's the problem there?

Katie: So the transmission system itself needs significant infrastructure additions to be able to facilitate that.

Daniel: Basically, they're the wires that connect us, that connect Montana to the solar panels in Southern California -- those wires don't exist to a good enough degree to to get us out of this.

Katie: Right. And who pays for that infrastructure need, you know, the billions and billions of dollars of infrastructure that would be needed to make something like that happen. So, you know, that that in and of itself is a massive challenge. And we really, you know, can't possibly overstate that, from not only the cost challenge associated with it, but also just the permitting and, I mean the same way that it's very, very challenging to site generation, it's that much more challenging to site massive transmission lines. Nobody, you know, everybody wants to have power, but nobody wants to look at transmission lines.

Daniel: Of course.

Katie: And so getting those things sited and built, it's massively challenging. There are so many, so many roadblocks. And even I mean, even to get renewable generation built, there are massive, massive roadblocks. Another challenge with wind and solar is just is the land mass challenge, you know, because really today, to accommodate for the intermittency of those resources, even pairing them with batteries, you need about five to-- five to one in terms of the generating capacity to replace a baseload generation resource.

Daniel: So it's this transition in theory, totally works. You know, we have sun shine-- always shining somewhere. We've got wind always blowing somewhere. Plus with our hydro, you know, kind of pulling us along. The problem is that to connect all of this and scale it up costs a lot of money. It takes a lot of work. And paying for that is not easy.

Katie: Paying for that is not easy. Building it in the first place is not easy. Talking about the buildout of, you know, the wind generation, the solar generation, the batteries from a natural resources and rare earth minerals standpoint is challenging. I think we're moving in some positive directions, but it's a much, much larger transition than I think than than we hope, right?

Daniel: If someone's been listening to the other conversations that I've been having in the series, like the consequences of climate change are extraordinary and that on a global scale, the math pencils out pretty well, that it's worth paying for this transition. But those costs are not-- they're not being billed evenly.

Katie: Right. Globally, certainly. Right.

Daniel: Yeah. So the the cost of getting our electricity over the past century and a half from coal and gas has been that it's heated our climate by over a degree Celsius already. It's melting the Park's glaciers. It's doubling the amount of wildfire we're seeing in the past couple of decades already. And all of those impacts are going to continue to get worse. Not to mention all the air pollution that comes from just the burning of those fossil fuels. So it's a critical transition to be making. But it's that doesn't mean it's easy.

Katie: Far from.

Daniel: And then on top of that, some of the impacts of climate change are actually making some of this transition even harder, like wildfire. How is that impacting electric transmission, for example?

Katie: Right. Yes. Speaking of things that keep us up at night, right? I mean, obviously, our region has has seen a lot more wildfire. And it's really, really difficult keeping poles and wires safe and and also not having any of of our system cause wildfire.

Daniel: That is basically that since it's getting hotter and drier, the risk of lighting-- or accidentally starting...

Katie: Of igniting...

Daniel: A wildfire from a power line... That's a real serious risk.

Katie: Yeah, absolutely.

Daniel: Another one could be climate change-exacerbated drought or, you know, if we have really low snowpack, we're a little low this year if we have--

Katie: We're quite low this year.

Daniel: Yeah. So that matters for electricity generation when we're so dependent on hydro.

Katie: It does. Yeah. That has certainly has an impact on the hydro system. You know, we've been very fortunate to have our hydro system have excellent years. But, you know, certainly.

Daniel: This is something you're watching.

Katie: Certainly something we're watching. You know, the other thing that I would mention is just extreme weather in general and the strain that it can create on the grid. So again, we're winter peaking. So we saw some of our coldest temperatures we've ever seen just this past winter. And that was, you know, that produced our peak loads in our area. But in other parts of the region where they're summer peaking, and maybe seeing some more extreme temperatures on the warmer side, you know, that that creates, you know, high loads as well that need to be met, which produces grid strain. Right? The higher the load, the higher the peak demand that needs to be met, the more potential strain on the grid. So just extreme weather in both directions, hot or cold has a grid impact. And, of course, extreme weather events like storms, you know, wind, flooding.

Daniel: Yeah.

Katie: All of which we've seen we just dealt with in our service area with flooding, here in the last couple of years as well. That took out a whole bunch of our system. So, yes, extreme weather in general is a threat to us, to the grid.

Daniel: Yeah. Maybe just to reiterate one of these points, it's frustrating that climate change is obviously increasing the temperatures in the winter in this area and all over the place. It's-- it's the winters are getting on average warmer and so are the summers. The summers are getting on average hotter. But we're not struggling to generate the electricity so much with the average, we're struggling to generate electricity...

Katie: With the peak.

Daniel: With the peaks.

Katie: Yes.

Daniel: And climate change is not eliminating cold snaps in the winter. So we still need-- we still have high peak demands for electricity during those cold snaps in the winter.

Katie: Absolutely. We are in an extraordinarily challenging time. And, you know, I'm a-- I'm an optimist and I think my role in the utility has also led me to be a realist about some of the energy crisis that we are facing at this time. But I also, as an optimist, I always look for opportunity in these challenges.

Daniel: Do you think you get some of your optimism from the fact knowing that Flathead Electric Co-op was created in a moment of great challenge and transition?

Katie: You know, almost 100 years ago, we were-- we were in a transition. Right, that felt daunting. And that we banded together and formed co-ops.

Daniel: A century or more ago when the Rural Electrification Act was passed. That was a time of great transition, too.

Katie: Yeah.

Daniel: Basically, no one in this area had electricity. There wasn't a grid. So we've overcome big infrastructural transitions like this before.

Katie: We have. Yes. Our predecessors faced significant challenges in electrifying all of rural America. And I think, you know, that that movement really, you know, transformed our our nation and laid a groundwork for, you know, a lot of the prosperity that we enjoy today. And we are definitely sitting at the at the cusp of another of another challenging transition and a time that has potential to be, to be very transformative. Power and electricity, while it was, in the rural electrification times, it was very, very nice to have. Now it's, it's essential. It's an essential part of all of our lives. So we we have to find solutions to keep the lights on. You know, the closest that we've come in our region to not being able to keep the lights on -- and many other regions have already have already experienced rolling blackouts, right? That's what happens when you when you don't have the grid in balance. You either take a take a blackout, right, or you do rolling blackouts across an interconnected grid to balance loads. But the closest that we've come to not being able to to meet those reliability needs is during extreme weather events. And particularly when there is, like, a generating system down, right? So there was a weather event in 2021 where one of the main federal hydro systems was having some maintenance issues. And during that event, you know, we came very, very close to not being able to meet peak demands. We were pushed to the brink again, just here in this winter event that was, you know, a regional cold snap. We were pushing our our grid right up close to the to the edge. We're sitting here talking about it and everyone's like, "yeah, but it's fine. Like, it's been fine." And we're sweating [laughing] as the utility, because we've been working really hard to make sure it's fine. And I don't think we understand how close that we that we have come or could come in the case of an extreme weather event or a generation system going down or a transmission system going down or...

Daniel: You're standing next to a cliff that you're looking at carefully. And most people are like, "what cliff?"

Katie: Right. Exactly. Yes. And then in-- we're also looking at growth forecasts is in the, in the northwest the latest snapshots on the load and demand -- that's the growth that's being forecast -- is between 2024 and 2033. So, you know, more or less the next ten years or less. Is like an eight-- over 18% annual energy growth and a 15% demand growth. And those numbers are huge. Unprecedented. We haven't met growth numbers like that before.

Daniel: You're describing a gap between the amount of electricity needed at peak times and the amount of electricity generated at peak times.

Katie: And transmission.

Daniel: Yeah. So it seems like you could try and solve that problem, overcome that challenge from two different directions. You could try and generate more electricity during peak times by building more solar or whatever. Or you could also try and solve that problem by reducing the peaks, getting people to use less electricity during the peaks, get it-- or getting them to use less electricity overall or less electricity at peak times and use it at different times. I suppose you're trying all of these things.

Katie: Great point. Yes, we-- and we are trying all these things. In fact, in fact, Flathead Electric was just awarded a federal grant. It's called the CIDER Grant. And we're one of five co-ops in the nation who is in this national research study on how distribution co-ops can develop distributed energy programs to work with their-- work closely with their members to control loads during peak times, or incentivize their members to control loads during peak times to to help reduce that grid strain and hopefully reduce the amount of new generation transmission that needs to be built, right. So, you know, right now we are in the midst of an engineering study to look at which programs might work in our area. One of those programs might be working with people who have smart thermostats in their homes to reduce the, you know, the temperature settings by a couple of degrees if we're expecting a peak load event in the summer. Which brings down down our loads, brings on energy costs for everyone. Or in the winter, you know, as the case may be here. Another program that the co-op has has actually offered in the past is a similar program that reduces your water heating load during peak times, which, you know, is good from the standpoint that, of course, it reduces our system load, but it also reduces your own personal load at your home, so it reduces your monthly energy costs and people-- electricity costs, and people really like that.

Daniel: Yeah.

Katie: So it's kind of a win win some of these programs, right? And that's what we're starting to see more of on that, you know, that collaboration side is, yes, regionally collaborating, but also the utilities collaborating more with with their members, as we like to say, as, you know, more grid partners.

Daniel: You're describing-- to me, it sounds like a lot of different ways of making the grid and the way we use electricity... making it smarter,.

Katie: Smarter and more flexible.

Daniel: This is something that utilities, I'm sure, have done for decades or the past century, is just charge more during peak times to try and get people to use less and spread their usage out more.

Katie: Interestingly, yes and no.

Daniel: Hm.

Katie: I think Flathead Electric was probably one of the earlier utilities -- not that there weren't others out there that did that -- we we have historically charged more as you used more energy, right. So this is again, this is that difference between our overall energy, so overall kilowatt hours that you utilize in a month, versus what your peak load at your house was, right. So that demand. And historically we've charged more as you've used more energy as an incentive to for you to not use as much energy. But what we've started doing is actually less emphasis on that piece and more emphasis on what we're, what is called a demand charge, which is based on your your peak demand at your own house. What was your highest load that you hit during our peak hours when where we know when we're strained and we're paying more for power? You know, what was your contribution to that load? And then charging for that accordingly to try to help reduce those peaks. Because again, not-- you know, we're not facing the, the shortage of overall electricity. We're really right now, facing that shortage during those peaks. Which is why, you know, us as the utility or the co-op, you know, we pay more during our our system peaks. And so that really mirrors the way that we're paying for power, to charge our members that way. And it incentivizes them to, you know, make choices that are good for the overall grid as well. But what these these other programs that we're talking about do is add a layer to that, you know, that foundational rate design concept that hopefully makes it more meaningful or more achievable for them to take part in those programs and actually reduce their loads.

Daniel: It's an interesting way to think about it that you're so concerned with peak loads rather than just average loads that your payment structure is actually designed for, that you're able to say like, it's not really about how much electricity you use overall, it's more about when you use it that we're concerned with.

Katie: Right. Yes. Which goes right back into that generation conversation, right. The really-- the generation we're concerned about is the generation that can happen during our peaks. That's when we-- that's when we need it. That's when it costs everyone more for us to buy it, and that's when we need it.

Daniel: If someone wants to pay a little bit less for their electricity, they should use their electric clothes dryer in the middle of the day or the middle of the night. Not use it during those peak load hours.

Katie: Depending on how their utilities rates are structured.

Daniel: Yeah.

Katie: If they're a Flathead Electric--Electric member. Yes. [laughs]

Daniel: And in the future, or even now, technologies that automate that will be really helpful in reducing peak loads.

Katie: Yes.

Daniel: Basically smart thermostats or just a dryer, clothes dryer, that's smart enough to know to run when there's less demand on the system.

Katie: Yeah. And what most people now can really relate to is their dishwasher. Like that's the easy one, right? To me, you know, I'm a-- I'm a mom. I've got two young kids. I've got a full time job. It's really difficult for me to not do laundry when I need to do laundry at this point. But my dishwasher, that's an easy one because I can just set it to run four hours later. So I'm not hitting those peaks.

Daniel: As long as they're clean when you get home...

Katie: Yeah, as long as they're clean when I wake up, then I'm good.

Daniel: What you're looking at, then it's just like, okay, well, how do we actually do that?

Katie: Right? Yeah, it sounds great. And it is. But, but figuring out...

Daniel: Is it something that the utility does? Is it something that the homeowner does? Is it something that the car does, or all three together?

Katie: Like, there are all those options. Yeah. And then even from the utility perspective, is it something that like a regional entity does instead so that there's more of a regional spread, right? So Flathead Electric is a member of PNGC, which is a generation and transmission cooperative that has 18 other public power members throughout the Pacific Northwest. So they have more of a regional look at the grid. So does it make sense to do, you know, some of this load control at the regional perspective, or does it make sense for us as a utility to do it to help more control our distribution grid? So there's all of these questions and all of these considerations and factors that go into it. And then you get down to that more granular piece of, okay but how do we actually do it?

Daniel: Yeah.

Katie: What devices are we actually helping a member manage? How are we actually managing those devices? We're looking also at water heaters, we're looking also at generators, we're looking at battery energy storage systems and net metered systems. And, you know, there are all sorts of potential programs that we could be looking at.

Daniel: And it's kind of an exciting area because it's all unknown. But one or a combination of these things will work. And the solution's there -- like it's, it's not as overwhelming as some of these other challenges we're talking about.

Katie: Right.

Daniel: That's cool.

Daniel: Katie, maybe you can talk to us about kind of-- your predictions. The electrification of this region that started in the 1930s... it took decades. And now it's been growing into what it is over the past century. Now we're in the 2020s. What do you see for the rest of this century for electricity in this region?

Katie: Diversification. For sure. Right? You know, as a utility, we're looking at where we can partner to build new generation resources, where we can partner to build transmission and distribution infrastructure that's going to be needed to meet our peaks. We are partnering more closely with members on what's called distributed energy resources. Right. And that's that would include things like, like solar panels that are on this building. But any resource that's distributed outside of the main grid, right, the main point of generation transmission to distribution. So smaller generation projects, you know, that we're seeing more and more of those, you know, those smaller local gen projects. And we're seeing more and more and more of our members become grid partners with us. And I don't really see a future where we don't have increased energy costs, unfortunately. And, you know, I think we'll see, you know, a grid that that hopefully becomes smarter and more able to incorporate, you know, more of those resources because we're going to have to I think we are going to need an all of the above approach to just to meet the load growth, right. Even if we weren't trying to replace a whole bunch of generation that that's set to retire.

Daniel: You're describing a future that's more collaborative that-- where the "public" part of public power is, is more important. What should the average person listening to this-- what would you encourage them to do to get more involved?

Katie: You know, I would encourage them to maybe go on a little bit of an educational journey. And at least have a better understanding of what happens when they flip the switch.

Daniel: Basically, you're encouraging people to find out where their electricity is coming from.

Katie: Yes. I think a lot of people in our area don't understand that they're served by an electric co-op or what that means or that, you know, their their heating is coming from natural gas. That's that's a different utility. And that their light switches and other appliances are being powered by electricity or that if they're outside of, you know, the city limits, maybe they are all electrically heated. And I don't think that... that mostly the general public has a great understanding of of that. And so I think that's a really, really good place to start is is kind of that like grid 101, right. That's where I would start, is just making sure that you have an understanding of what's happening in your own home and your own business. And where it's, you know, where it's ultimately coming from. And then I think you can start to kind of grasp that bigger picture.

Daniel: Yeah, I like that you said, you know, start your education journey. Find out what happens when you flip the switch. And I can imagine a lot of benefit from people saying, okay, so I realize now my stove is natural gas.

Katie: Yep.

Daniel: It's wearing out. I need to upgrade it. Am I going to switch to electricity? There's a lot of climate and air pollution benefits to that. But maybe I should be thinking about efficiency. Maybe I should be thinking about how I'm powering that, you know, with a battery when the power goes out. Or with solar panels on my roof, or just thinking through some of these transitions from fossil fuels to electricity that are happening inside the home.

Katie: Yeah. The reality is that you have more energy choices than ever, right. And our website's a great place to start. And even if you're not a member of Flathead Electric, you're welcome to use those resources.

Daniel: So find out what electric co-op you might be part of, but also go check out Flathead Electric if you need help.

Katie: Yeah, exactly. We try to be very careful to not be alarmist, but just be realistic about the challenges that that we're facing in hopes that our members will be better educated, that they will be better informed, and that they will take a little bit more active role in their in their co-op, in their energy future. And I think that that is that's one of the benefits of of the cooperative business model is that we are very focused in that way.

Daniel: Yeah. That for better or worse, we're living through an era of big change. [chimey music begins to play]

Katie: Yes.

Daniel: And it's going to take all of us getting involved and paying attention to get through that. [beat joins in]

Katie: Yeah, exactly.

Daniel: Well, thanks so much for talking with us today on Headwaters.

Katie: Sure. Thank you very much for having us. [song continues to play under the credits]

Peri: Headwaters is funded by donations to the Glacier National Park Conservancy. As an organization dedicated to supporting the park, the Conservancy funds a lot of sustainability initiatives. From solar panels on park buildings to storytelling projects like this one, the Conservancy is doing critical work to prevent the worst impacts of climate change. You can learn more about what they do and about how to get involved at glacier.org. The Headwaters team includes Daniel Lombardi, Michael Faist, Gaby Eseverri, Madeline Vinh, Sophia Britto, and me, Peri Sasnett. That said, Headwaters wouldn't exist without friends like Lacy Kowalski, Grace Kinzler, Melissa Sladek, Kristen Friesen and so many others. Our music is made fresh by Frank Waln, and the show's cover art was created by Stella Nall. Check out Frank and Stella's work with the links in the show notes. I recommend following both of them on Instagram. Besides sharing this episode with a friend who might appreciate it, you can support us by leaving us a review in your podcast app. Thanks for listening! [music resolves and fades out]