Living Legends: the ancient oaks of Sherwood Forest

Accompanied by experts Adam and Louise and a 100-year-old-book, our latest episode takes us to Nottinghamshire's Sherwood Forest to visit two astonishing trees. The Parliament Oak and Major Oak have each stood through several centuries and have fascinating stories attached to them. Equally astonishing is the fact that magnificent oaks like these don't have legal protection like our built heritage. Join us as we learn the magical lifesaving strategy of ancient oaks that could make them immortal, how penny coins can tell us about the health of a tree, whether Robin Hood really lived in Sherwood Forest and what you can do to help earn living legends like these the protection they deserve.

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Transcript 

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. 

Adam Shaw: Today I'm off to Sherwood Forest, home, famously, of course, of Robin Hood. The name Sherwood Forest actually comes from its status as a shire and the word shire was turned into sher...wood of Nottinghamshire, therefore Sherwood. Anyway, I've come to visit two trees, in particular: the Parliament Oak and the Major Oak. But before we get to that a lot more details on why those trees are so important later on, but first of all, of course I have to meet my two guides for the day. 

Louise Hackett: I'm Louise Hackett. I'm the treescape lead for Sherwood. I manage essentially a partnership project across the landscape of what was the historic Sherwood Forest. So that extends from Nottingham up to Worksop and Retford. 

Adam Shaw: Fantastic. So huge portfolio and I'm also joined by another Adam. So you are? 

Adam Cormack: Adam Cormack and I head up the campaigning team at the Woodland Trust. 

Adam Shaw: Fantastic. And we are standing in a beautiful field. I've forgotten to bring my suntan lotion so I could have a red bald head by the end of today, which is very naughty, but we are standing by, well, I'm going to start with, it's called a palace, it may not be what you quite imagine this to be. I'll try and put this on my social media and the Woodland Trust social media so you know what this looks like, but who just wants to explain to me a bit about where we are? Adam’s being thrust towards the microphone. 

Adam Cormack: So we're in a field in the middle of Nottinghamshire in a place called Clipstone and we’re by King John's Palace, which is a few remaining walls from an old royal hunting lodge that's about 900 years old. So this dates back to that time when Sherwood was a royal hunting forest. So it's called King John's Palace. But you have to kind of remove that idea of a palace from your mind as you're saying, Adam, it's basically a few remaining walls. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. 

Adam Cormack: Which I you know, I can still still find it interesting. Kind of imagine what life was like here years ago. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. No, it is. I mean, yes, I mean look, it is a few remaining walls, but it is beautiful. It's you know it's it's it's not like a a breeze block or anything like that. OK. So we've we've talked about history already a couple of times and the only thing I know about Sherwood Forest and I think I'll be joined by lots of people here is Robin Hood. So Robin Hood was here. Apart from Robin Hood, what else is the historical context of this place? 

Louise Hackett: So yes, as as Adam was just saying with the area subject to forest law, which is what made this area a royal hunting forest, the vert and the venison was protected for virtue of the king and that resulted in an incredible landscape that was a a rich mosaic of oak birch woodland, lowland heathland, acid grassland and it covered a huge swathe and it was incredibly dynamic landscape with a long history as as a hunting forest that would have looked very different through the years. 

Adam Shaw: So this, it was protected because the king wanted to ride around and catch wild boar and all of that sort of stuff.  

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. 

Adam Shaw: And what sort of period are we talking about? 

Louise Hackett:  So we're talking from roughly the 1100s onwards or or earlier than that even, it has a long history. 

Adam Shaw: Now also on the car journey here from, you were very kind you picked me up from the station we’re quite a way from the station, but you were, I was surprised you also said oh look we've been we've been in the forest all this time. So I often think of oh, we get to a forest and there's a bit of woodland, but we've been driving half an hour, I don't know, 40 minutes or so, and throughout that time we've been in Sherwood Forest. 

Louise Hackett:  Absolutely. And I think this is one of the things that I think when people say the word forest, people think of wall to wall trees. But as we were just saying that actually what a forest refers to is an area subject to forest law. And these would have been complex mosaics of lots of different habitats, primarily open habitat. That's what would have made it such an enjoyable environment for the king to ride through. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah, cause you can't ride through the actual trees too much. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely, no. 

Adam Shaw: OK. And a couple of times, you've already mentioned a new phrase to me. Woodland law?  

Louise Hackett: Forest law.  

Adam Shaw: Forest law. Never heard of that. What is forest law? 

Louise Hackett: So so this was essentially the the a separate law system that applied to hunting forests, and there were numerous hunting forests across England. So this was a separate law system, as I say, that protected the vert and the venison. So anything green and growing and the the animals, primarily those that you'd hunt. 

Adam Shaw: Right. Protected it for the king.  

Louise Hackett: For the king. And his friends.  

Adam Shaw: OK, but it has so, right. OK, fair enough. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because you know, that's really part of the aristocracy and all, you know, quite problematic in lots of social ways. But actually it has an environmental benefit - because it was saved for the king, it happens to be safe for everyone else and nature itself. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. So so there will have been small communities that lived in these areas, but they would have had very strict rules as to what access they had to certain areas of the land and and what they had access to and and but but all of that defined really what this looked like as a natural landscape and it it really protected quite a special wood pasture habitat. 

Adam Shaw: Wonderful. Now also Adam, you are clutching a very exciting looking book, proper old big bound book called Sherwood Forest by Joseph Rodgers. So how old is this book for a start? 

Adam Cormack: So this book is just over a century old. 

Adam Shaw: Wow. OK, proper old book. And this is all about Sherwood Forest. So how how's it split out this book? I mean, it's a it's a huge tome. So was it by tree or by person or what? 

Adam Cormack: Yeah, it's it's a hefty tome, isn't it? It's it's so it's a kind of miscellany of Sherwood Forest really, so it covers the important old trees of Sherwood Forest. There's a little chapter on the Major Oak, which is a tree that we'll see today, a chapter on the Parliament Oak. And there's a chapter on where we're standing now, King John's Palace. So I thought I might just actually read out the first sentence because I think it's a good kind of encapsulation. So remember, this is written sort of 100 years ago, so ‘Such a feeling of quiet dwells in this little sleepy village consisting of a few labourers’ cottages and farmhouses with straight canals along the meadows in place of the pleasant river, with the golden ragwort flourishing on its banks. That, from its appearance, a stranger would gather no idea of its ancient importance, for there is nothing to indicate the rude state which must have at one time here been maintained.’ 

Adam Shaw: Well, look, it's a nice day we're standing by this palace. That's not why we've come here though. So just give me an idea of the trip we're going to take today. 

Adam Cormack: So we're going to go and look at two really important trees of Sherwood Forest now. We're gonna go and look at the Parliament Oak, which is just five minutes up the road from here and there is links to King John's Palace. So we'll talk about that when we're at the tree. And then we're going to go to the Major Oak and let Lou just talk about the Major Oak. 

Adam Shaw: OK, that's all to come. Bit of walking involved first though. So as we walk towards our first big tree of the day, the so-called Parliament Oak, I'm going to read from the other Adam’s 100-year-old book about this oak. I'm going to be very careful so I don't trip over and ruin this book which has been looked after for over a century. ‘It has been stated with some probability of truth that King John, while hunting in the forest, was informed by a messenger of a revolt of the Welsh and of an insurrection in the north of England that he hastily summoned a parliament to meet under this tree, and that it owes its name to that incident. On another account, it connects it with Edward I, who, when on his way to Scotland in 1290, summoned a parliament to meet at Clipton, at Clipstone, sorry, so it has no idea why it's called the Parliament Oak, so it could be to do with King John or it could be to do with Edward I. But it is called the Parliament Oak. And here it is in this beautiful book with a drawing or engraving of it, it looks like a sort of split oak. I'm just trying to see how accurate it is. Ohh, there it is. I'm being, I'm looking at the wrong blooming thing. There we are. So we can see it in the book and I can see it in real life. And what a wonderful, what a wonderful book. And what a wonderful place to read out that paragraph. Alright, we're resting, I just feel this is so apt, we're resting our book about the Parliament Oak on the Parliament Oak and and Lou it's I've lost the place. 

Louise Hackett: Which page? 

Adam Cormack: 197. 

Adam Shaw: If you're following along at home on the few versions of this 100-year-old book that might be out there, it's page 197 *laughs*. I feel like I'm leading a congregation. If you turn now, that's in your prayer books, past the Shambles Oak. There we are, the Parliament Oak. So Lou. Did I miss out something important you wanted to read about this? 

Louise Hackett: I just wanted to point out on the illustration, because I think on on some of the old illustrations you can see that there's two, what we call functional units, so one of the incredible things ancient oak trees do is they can separate themselves into functional units, which is a fantastic lifesaving strategy, which I I'll happily talk about more later. But on a lot of the old illustrations you you see what essentially are two functional units remaining of the tree. 

Adam Shaw: So just to be explained, a functional unit is what looks like two trees, but you're actually saying this is one tree which looks like two trees, but you're calling them functional units. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. So as it's aged, the tree has essentially segmented itself. And these these segments are what was once one tree starts to split out into multiple segments, which generally is associated with a large limb, but it means that if you have, if you lose one of your limbs and it's quite a catastrophic loss, you could lose that functional unit at no risk to your other sections, so it's quite a good lifesaving strategy. So we so in a lot of the old images you see these two sections and because we've got two trees still standing here today, people think that they are those two fragments. But but in fact it's only one remaining and the way we can identify that is you can see on the left-hand side of this illustration, you can see a small burr forming. That's what I'm resting th b book on, so it has grown quite considerably this burr since since the illustration. 

Adam Shaw: Right. Wow. It's a little bump 100 years ago, it's now a proper table. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. Yeah. So this is what's still standing and the piece of deadwood on the ground next to us... 

Adam Shaw: OK, let's have a look. Oh, OK. Yes, that was that whole tree. 

Louise Hackett:  It was the section that joined those two functional units, so it was... 

Adam Shaw: Right. And what's happened to that other functional unit then, that's gone? 

Louise Hackett: So that's been lost. Yes, absolutely. So so what, what you can't see in this image is essentially it was, it was a huge tree at at its kind of height at its kind when it was at its kind of fullest, 9.5 metres in circumference, so it was a large tree and it would have been completely hollow at that at that point. And and that's when basically the the as the deadwood decayed and just those two functional units remained and and now just one. But what's magical with this tree is that you'd never know that to look at it. Today without these kind of past illustrations and photographs because what's actually happened is it's precluded fully around this this remaining fragment, so it looks like a 100-year-old oak. But actually it's potentially 900 years old. 

Adam Shaw: Wow. That's extraordinary, isn't it? So, yeah, well, that is extraordinary. I was going to say, how old is it, so we're looking at a 900-year-old oak here. 

Louise Hackett: But it's it's done this magical thing of having gone back to a younger stage of its life, we we quite often think of trees of of being young, mature, old and then dying. But actually what they have the capability of, which is what makes ancient trees so special is, they can go back to an earlier life stage. So this is now a mature tree and there is nothing preventing this tree going through that full lifespan all over again and becoming a huge hollow ancient of the future. It was already in ancient but... 

Adam Shaw: Yeah, well that's extraordinary. So really, it might never die because it just rejuvenates, really.  

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. 

Adam Shaw: An amazing thing. Well, that is brilliant. And Adam is also standing here and we're talking about history, Adam. And we're talking about the history of this tree, but that feeds into quite an important bit of work you're doing about history in general. 

Adam Cormack: Yes, so the Woodland Trust has been running a campaign called Living Legends for the past couple of years, which is about improving protection for trees like Parliament Oak, but other very old and very special trees. So we're calling them heritage trees. So people have been campaigning for protection of these trees for a very long time,  for decades. But the last couple of years is where we've pulled that all together into a campaign called Living Legends. We've got a petition that's been supported by over 85,000 people calling for legal protection for very old and special trees. 

Adam Shaw: So don't they have, I mean I always thought trees were protected anyway and you're not allowed to cut down a tree even in your own garden, because the local council object? 

Adam Cormack: Well, I think it's just I think there's a sort of I think what you're talking about there is the sort of day-to-day protection that trees have from our feelings and attitudes towards them, which is the sort of social contract that we have that you don't just cut down trees. And that's the thing that protects trees sort of day in day out. There are policies and a few legal instruments, felling licences, tree preservation orders, that sort of together, provide trees with a basic level of protection, but there's nothing to recognise the value of this tree, the Parliament Oak, so 900 years or maybe even a bit older than that, in the way that we were just at King John's Palace, so we were there we were looking at a kind of heritage asset that was sort of similar sort of age, really, grade listed has legal protection. It's recognised for its value and for what it can tell us about the past and tell us about ourselves and what we think should happen is that trees should just have the same level of protection. Not all of them, just the oldest and most special. 

Adam Shaw: So this 900-year-old tree doesn't have any historical protection compared to the 900-year-old odd palace, which does have historical protection. Is that fair? 

Adam Cormack: You just said it Adam, no it doesn’t. But that's the case for all of our really old and special trees. Sorry we've just got a tractor going past. So you can, we're here, I mean, the tree is just, you can probably hear the cars going past, it's on the corner of a road, the corner of a farm track. And I think that just shows you that these trees aren't all in really safe, secluded places, they're they're there in day-to-day life, on road verges, parks, gardens, sometimes in woodlands and farms. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. It's odd, isn't it? Because it is a part of the British history, not just natural history. But, you know, history of parliament, of democracy, of kings and queens. And yet it it doesn't have any legal protection that if it was made of bricks, it would have. But because it's actually not made of bricks, it doesn't have. 

Adam Cormack: That that's it really. So I think we, you know, we protect the things that we've made as human beings. So we protect the buildings, the artworks, the things that we've created but so these old trees should just have a similar level of protection. It's great that we protect all those other important things scheduled ancient monuments, battlefields, works of art. Trees just fit into the same category. 

Adam Shaw: And if listeners to our podcast believe in what you're saying and want to support that, how do they do that? 

Adam Cormack: So listeners can go to the Woodland Trust website or just go to Google and type Living Legends campaign and they'll go straight to our petition and they could be the 85,001 person to sign our petition although hopefully it will have gone up a bit by the time people listen to this. 

Adam Shaw: So, Living Legends, that's what you're looking for. The Woodland Trust’s Living Legends campaign, and you can add your name to that. 

Adam Cormack: That's right. And and I think there's one other thing to add to that, which is that over the last six months, we've been successful in securing a private members’ bill for heritage trees. So we’re actually on that journey now towards legislative protection for some of these trees. Baroness Young has introduced a private members’ bill, so this is a heritage trees bill and it introduces this designation of heritage trees, so it's not law yet. It's got quite a long way to go before it does become law, but you can go online you can Google that too, and you can read it for yourself. It's only five pages long it's quite short, it just talks about bringing in legal protection for very old and special trees. 

Adam Shaw: Of course, and and that needs government support, we’ve got a new government, so who knows what will happen to that. But I I know you'll be hoping that actually gets pushed forward.  

Adam Cormack: We will yeah. 

Adam Shaw: OK, well, while everyone is going to that petition to sign their names, we can walk on to another tree you wanted to show me. Where’s that? 

Adam Cormack: So we're gonna go to the Major Oak now, which is probably the tree that most people know or think about when they think about Sherwood Forest. You know, it's legendarily the place where Robin Hood lived. You know, you can make that decision for yourself when you get there and you see the tree. 

Adam Shaw: OK, brilliant. Alright. Well, we're gonna walk on, you go sign a petition if if you fancy or just sip your cup of tea. Now one thing, I was keen not to do too much about Robin Hood cause I thought there would be loads much there’d be loads more to talk about. But in fact, I’ve hardly mentioned Robin Hood. I feel that's a bit of a miss. So Sherwood Forest, most famous, the home of Robin Hood. He's a real character, isn't he for a start? 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. 

Adam Shaw: OK good. Right. Robbed from the rich and gave to the poor? I know you're a tree expert not really a Robin Hood expert and this is a bit unfair, but from your understanding is that a good reflection of what happened? Or is it more complex than that? 

Louise Hackett: Well, I think I think you can easily understand how Sherwood Forest would be a landscape someone like Robin Hood would be able to hide and and for for hundreds of years you would have had to have hired a guide to take you through this landscape. It was considered so dangerous.  

Adam Shaw: Really, you get mugged? 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely.  

Adam Shaw: And it was the king's hunting ground. So this was a good place for someone who wants to, you know, pick on the rich, this is would be a place to do it. 

Louise Hackett: It had an entirely different law system, so it prevented us, the commoners from from taking the vert or the venison from this landscape. So you can understand how local people would be slightly annoyed at the fact that the king was holding all of all of that for himself. 

Adam Shaw: Yes, slightly annoyed. I think that'd be a great description of Robin Hood. He was slightly annoyed as he set up his band of merry men to take back the venison *both laugh*. Anyway, and it's still today, I mean, that's what draws a lot of the tourists in we’re standing up by this huge oak, but of course around us, lots of signage about Robin Hood and lots of young people dressed in green running around with lovely hats on. So yeah, still still a draw. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely and internationally as well, which I think is really exciting for the Major Oak specifically. It hosted many guests from from across the world, and not many trees can say that. 

Adam Shaw: We've arrived at the Major Oak, which is a major tree. It is not called the Major Oak because it is big is it?  

Louise Hackett: No. 

Adam Shaw: OK so let's first of all explain why it's called the Major Oak. 

Louise Hackett: So it's named after Major Hayman Rooke, who famously illustrated a lot of named trees across this landscape and and in Derbyshire also. But a lot of trees that were incredibly significant in this landscape but have since been lost. The irony is he didn't actually illustrate this tree *both laugh*. 

Adam Shaw: So, so so it's called after him, but it's nothing to do with him at all. 

Louise Hackett: Well, well, he, he, he, he he was certainly in this area and will have will have absolutely seen this tree but and there is an illustration that quite often gets labelled as the Queen Oak or which was its name before it was known as the Major Oak but actually when you study that illustration, it bears no resemblance to this tree. 

Adam Shaw: OK. So it’s like in honour of a man who chronicled the trees of this region. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. 

Adam Shaw: Fair enough. Now let's describe it because it is an oak. To me, those familiar with the Harry Potter Potter novels might think of it more as the Whomping Willow. It's it's very sprawling, not particularly high. It doesn't really have an obvious crown. It's spreading out, and it's supported by lots of metal supports, which probably because the limbs are so old, they might fall off or fall down, and it's got a fence around it to stop you going up to it now. Is that a fair description? 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. So, so those props, kind of the the the the history of this tree is quite complex, so actually measures were taken since the Victorian era to hold this tree together essentially. There were some fantastic pictures of the blacksmith posing in front of this tree with all the metalwork that we can actually still see in the crown, you can see all of that metalwork holding the branches together.  

Adam Shaw: Ohh right I thought yeah now because it's all brown I missed it. I thought it was ropes. That's metalwork. 

Louise Hackett: Yeah. No, that's all metalwork and and that's been there for a very long time. 

Adam Shaw: This is really pulled together. This tree is being held together. But it still limps on. 

Louise Hackett: It does, it does. It is struggling. 

Adam Shaw: Right. How old is it?  

Louise Hackett: So that's a fantastic question. *both laugh* 

Adam Shaw: OK, I can I can tell from the moment I asked that you didn't want to be asked that question. OK, well, is it not clear how old this tree is? 

Louise Hackett: There is no way to definitively say how old this tree is.  

Adam Shaw: But you’re an expert, give us your best guess. 

Louise Hackett: There, there are are are lots of guesses, some say 800, some say 1,300. 

Adam Shaw: Which would make it very old for an oak, isn't it, 1,000 years is... 

Louise Hackett: No matter what it is a very old tree. 

Adam Shaw: Right. And I mean, I rather unkindly described it as limping on. It's it's clearly having help here. It's nothing particularly wrong with it, it's just old, is it? 

Louise Hackett: No. So it's not its age that is causing it issues. So as I was saying the the Victorians did a lot of work in in terms of trying to keep the tree together. It was an incredibly popular tourist attraction through the for the Victorians.  

Adam Shaw: Still is, there's a picnic area right by here. 

Louise Hackett: And it it still is, it has 200 years of people visiting this tree and unfortunately that has compromised the tree as a result. 

Adam Shaw: Why, what, why would that, people coming along and standing by the tree, why, what harm does that do? 

Louise Hackett: So the first thing you want to do when you’re visiting an ancient tree is you want to walk right up to it, don't you? And put your hands on it and and and and kind of make that connection. And for a long time you could do that. At the moment it's fenced off, and it's been fenced off for for 30-odd years and that's because the compaction around this tree is considerable. 

Adam Shaw: And that makes it hard for its roots to actually function. 

Louise Hackett: It means that they can't access, the roots can't access the water and nutrients needed. And and it's now struggling unfortunately as a as a result of that. 

Adam Shaw: Now also we passed just we're sort of one side of the of the tree, as we passed it, I could see sort of round I don’t know metal thing attached to it, looked like a scientific instrument. What's that? 

Louise Hackett: Yes. So a lot of work is happening on this site at the moment to hopefully remedy some of the issues that the Major Oak is happening. So RSPB have employed a whole range of experts from from many different fields. And I've been working with them and Myerscough College to fit dendrometers to the tree. 

Adam Shaw: Say that word again?  

Louise Hackett: Dendrometers. 

Adam Shaw: Dendrometers. What's that? 

Louise Hackett: So these measure the the growth and shrinkage of the of the sapwood, so they're fitted... 

Adam Shaw: And the sapwood is that the internal bit? 

Louise Hackett: Yes, so so this is the, the, the the part that transports all of those water and nutrients. 

Adam Shaw: Right. So it's got a sort of it it's got something buried inside the tree, which is measuring internal movement. 

Louise Hackett: So so it's it's fixed to the tree, but it actually sits on the bark. So we've used one penny coins, which because they're magnetic.  

Adam Shaw: Literally one penny coins? 

Louise Hackett: Yeah, there are there are multiple penny coins glued to the Major Oak right now. And the dendrometer just sits on on that magnet. It has a magnet and it just sits on there. And it measures to the micrometre any growth or shrinkage every half hour. 

Adam Shaw: Right. Right. Whether, it's like it's breathing, whether it's breathing out or whether it's breathing in and why, that's extraordinary. That's a normal process is it?  

Louise Hackett: Yes.  

Adam Shaw: And that's as the water's coming up it sort of expands a bit and because that's how it pushes the water up anyway, isn't it sort of like a like a snake sort of pushing it up and down? 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. And it will be responding to its environment. So what we're seeing is after a really dry spell, it shrinks. And after a wet spell it it it expands so the cells are always dividing but the the kind of quantity of water in those cells depends on on the environment and and what's happening. 

Adam Shaw: Right. And what you'd want to see in a healthy tree is a lot of movement or not a lot of movement? 

Louise Hackett: It's not so much about the the movement, it's more about the trajectory. So over time we want to see the, the, the average going up, that it's constantly growing. Obviously the tree’s struggling at the moment and it's so it's a fascinating time to be observing what different sections of the tree are doing and because as we were talking before about functional units, the Major Oak will have separate functional units. 

Adam Shaw: Right, so this is what I was going to come on to that, we talked about how actually trees could be immortal in a way, because it's not that an acorn comes off and grows another tree, but they split so the same tree, sort of starts its life again, genetically the same tree that, you're going to correct me here, but that hasn't happened here, has it? 

Louise Hackett: So so so. In what way do you mean sorry? 

Adam Shaw: Well, yeah, that's alright I because I'm an idiot, aren't I? What I mean is that it, wouldn't it be lovely if, like we saw with the Parliament Oak, that if a bit of it sort of split off you went OK, maybe the first bit might die back but genetically, the same tree that that continuous sort of lineage just starts afresh next to it, not as an acorn but as a part of its own tree. But we don't seem to be seeing that.  

Louise Hackett: It has done that.  

Adam Shaw: In the past or, I just can't see it now? 

Louise Hackett: So it is you just can't see it. So yeah.  

Adam Shaw: OK, I told you I’m an idiot! Show, show me what's going on. Show me. 

Louise Hackett: No, no, no, no, no. So so so we were just, so the the the Parliament Oak just makes it incredibly obvious because we have images of two very obvious separate functional units because the the area in between has has died away over time, but we can't see that so obviously with the Major Oak until you really know what you're looking for. So if you think... 

Adam Shaw: Right. That's why I've brought you along! Go on. Show me what I should be looking for. 

Louise Hackett: So the large if you see that large limb to to the right, you can you can almost see a line going down the bark. 

Adam Shaw: Yes. I definitely can see a line. It looks like someones lain something over that. 

Louise Hackett: Yeah. So basically what it's done is it's formed this this separate functional unit associated with that large limb. And what you generally see when you when you've got strong functional units in, in my eyes, you you often see this almost like a wound wood response to the separate unit. They're starting to understand that they're separate and behave so they're healing against each other. 

Adam Shaw: Right. So that tree that, that part of the tree really reaching out into the picnic area if you like, is part of a sort of a new a new development.  

Louise Hackett: Not new. 

Adam Shaw: I was going to say it's all, new is relative because this thing is maybe 1,000 years old. 

Louise Hackett: It's. Yeah, I think it's hard. It's hard for us to understand, but it's essentially, you know, my arm, my right arm connected to my right leg is functioning completely separately and if I if that was to be completely removed, would continue happily. 

Adam Shaw: Yes. Yeah, fine. So even if the main bit of the tree died back or something terrible happened to it, we might have that maintaining itself. It's a separate entity. 

Louise Hackett: Potentially. We've we've definitely got some functional units doing better than others. And what that means is perhaps may, you know worst case scenario one of those functional units are going to die. Worst case scenario, hopefully that's not going to happen. But if it did, that doesn't compromise the other units, so they could carry on and and... 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. So you're saying even though it actually it hasn't got a huge amount of leaves on it, it's rather bald actually that baldness is a sign of hope, which is a good... I'm just taking it, trying to take a good message for bald men like me, the world over there is hope in your baldness. Men and trees unite. *both laugh* You’re not so sure, I get that. 

Louise Hackett: It's kind of the opposite but... 

Adam Shaw: Oh, it's the opposite of that! Oh, you were saying there was hope though? 

Louise Hackett: It's the, it's there's hope where where you've got more leaves. Yeah, sorry. 

Adam Shaw: Ohh, there's hope they're, so I'm trying to find a good message in being bald. No, there's never a good... right scrub that. It's always bad. 

Louise Hackett: It's not, it's I so so I quite often describe ancient trees the the process of retrenchment is they're quite like people is they they they come become a bit more rotund, they shrink and and they lose their hair. And this is what trees do. And that is a really positive process. 

Adam Shaw: She's not describing me, just so you know. This sort of I mean it's an amazing it's an amazing, bit of nature of this, it's also a bit of history, which neatly ties in to this Living Legend's campaign, isn't it? It's an it's an important part of British history. 

Louise Hackett: It is when you think about this tree alone. Let's say it's 1,300 years old, which is the upper estimate. The the the history that this tree has witnessed in its lifetime is immense, in a way that we would certainly look to protect a a building that has that, that, that history connection to it. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. I mean, during, so 1,000 years ago, what are we talking about? What were we saying before? It's like is it 1066. So it's, yeah, I don't know Edward the Confessor. It's I don't know if this was a man built thing we'd all be buying tickets to see it and there'd be an ice cream van outside and, you know, it’d be on a tourist trail. This is free. A part of British history. A witness to British history. And yet, trees like this don't have the same sort of legal protection that if it was made of bricks, it would have. So do you, do you think this is a good ambassador or how good an ambassador is this for the sort of campaign you're trying to to rally around? 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. I think this is why people love to visit ancient trees. I I don't think you can help but be in awe for its age and and what it's witnessed in a way that I think it's quite hard for us to comprehend and and you know, comparing to our own lifespans. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. 

Louise Hackett: It's inspiring. 

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.