Vanessa and Casper explore the theme of Defiance in chapter twenty-five of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. They discuss Hermione’s manipulation of Rita, Neville’s embrace of the DA, and Cho’s disappointment in Harry. Throughout the episode they consider the question: Is defiance always personal?

Thanks to Andy Phillips for this week's voicemail! Next week we’ll be reading chapter twenty-six, Seen and Unforeseen, through the theme of obligation.

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