SL096: Body Language Expert

Body Language Expert James Taylor interviews Mark Bowden and they talked about The body language of inspiring speakers

In today's episode Mark Bowden talked about The body language of inspiring speakers.

Mark Bowden has been voted the #1 Body Language Professional in the world two years running. He is the founder of the communication training company TRUTHPLANE® and his clients include leading businesspeople, teams, and politicians, presidents and CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and Prime Ministers of G8 powers. He has written three bestsellers about body language and human behavior and spoken at TEDx Toronto. One of the world’s foremost authorities on nonverbal communication, he is in high demand giving keynotes worldwide.

What we cover:

• Why understanding body language is critical for speakers

• How audiences judge speakers

• The body language of inspiring speakers

Resources:

• Mark's Website

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Read full transcript at https://speakersu.com/body-language-expert-sl096/

James Taylor Hi, it's James Taylor, founder of SpeakersU. Today's episode was first aired as part of International Speakers Summit the world's largest online event for professional speakers. And if you'd like to access the full video version, as well as in depth sessions with over 150 top speakers, then I've got a very special offer for you. Just go to InternationalSpeakersSummit.com, where you'll be able to register for a free pass for the summit. Yep, that's right 150 of the world's top speakers sharing their insights, strategies and tactics on how to launch grow and build a successful speaking business. So just go to InternationalSpeakersSummit.com but not before you listen to today's episode.

Hey, it's James Taylor, and I'm delighted to be joined by Mark Bowden. Mark Bowden has been voted the number one body language professional in the world two years running. He is the founder of the communication training company truth plain, and his clients include leading business people, teams and politicians, presidents and CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and prime ministers of g8 powers. He has written three bestsellers about body language and human behavior. And spoken at TEDx Toronto, one of the world's foremost authorities on nonverbal communication. He is in high demand giving keynotes worldwide and it's my great pleasure to have him on today. So welcome.

Mark Bowden Oh, thanks very much for having me, James. It's great pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

James Taylor So we've spoken before and and when we started kind of putting this event together, I thought it would be absolutely insane if I didn't have you on this, because you, you are the guy when it comes to body language. And and you know, I've spoke we've spoken about the body language of speakers and what they do, right? So for how did you get involved in this world of understanding body language, and then obviously writing and speaking about it.

Mark Bowden So I first got involved because as a kid, I was fascinated with animal behavior. And then human behavior, just fascinated with Why do humans do this? Why do they do that? Why did that occur? Why do we get on with these people and not get on with those people over there. And I wanted to know why. And I wanted tools and techniques to get better at it better at influence and persuasion. So really, I got him through that angle.

James Taylor So it's like they can evolutionary side of things. That's how you and it is speaking to you before and reading some of your work. There's such a strong evolutionary side, we it's so subconscious, that when when these things are happening, but they all kind of pause back to that doesn't it all connected, there is a reason for these things in the way that people behave.

Mark Bowden Sure. So I would class myself as an evolutionary behavioral psychologist, so obviously, everything is going to get pulled back to evolution. From my point of view, there are other models to look at human behavior from, I just happened to think the evolutionary one is the best, and is the most likely, and seems to make the most sense. And more importantly, it's the most helpful. So it's always been a really helpful way for me to look at behavior. Because in that way, there's no bad behaviors, there's just results that you wanted or didn't want. And I think that's a really important model to use, especially when you're thinking about public speaking, in that there's nothing really bad that you can do, there's just results that you wanted or didn't want. And if you're not getting the results that you want, the important thing is is what behaviors can you do in order to get the results that you want? And that's really the work that I do with speakers is, what behavior would you have to do to get the right result out of your audience.

James Taylor So one of the videos I saw on your site, you did a very interesting little experiment where you walk through a door, but you have your hands behind you, and you walk up to the camera, and you start speaking. And then you and it was fascinating, because we're so used to seeing, you know, it just felt weird. It just felt really odd. And I couldn't kind of put my finger on why it was odd at first until you explained it. So what was going on there?

Mark Bowden Yeah, so here's one of the ways that our primitive brain that older part of the evolutionary brain, here's how it deals with some data, it says when insufficient data default to a negative. So if you don't have data, that primitive brain is not optimistic, it's pessimistic, better to be safe than sorry. So at the moment, when I'm speaking to you, I'm trying to show you a lot of my gestures and my hands. So you get a lot of sufficient data about what my feeling and intention might be, as I'm speaking to you. But if I actually I'm just going to move this a little bit and step back a little bit so you can see actually more of my body. And actually, what I'm going to do is, is put my hands behind my back, as I talk to you here. Now just think how confident you are about my content for you and my feelings and intentions towards you. And now if I let you see my hands, are you more optimistic and more confident about me and my content? Because there's me and you could listen to me for the next you know, 20 minutes, or there's me and you can listen to me for the next 20 minutes. Yeah, is that one that you immediately prefer as

James Taylor well as being able to see the hand and it's not just it's not just the gestures, obviously, there's gestures going on there as well. But there's something it's just like, being able to see the hand it just feels like something's not it's not right. And it's, it's difficult to can put your finger on it, but just I think everyone's gonna see this as the as the watch this just now it's like there's something not right there.

Mark Bowden Yeah. So it's it's in it's interesting is that you don't quite know what's right about it, or what's wrong about it is because essentially, it's unconscious, it's in your subconscious is in your primitive brain to want to know, do I have any tools or weapons? Is there anything in my hands that could harm you. And you'd rather know that there's something in my hands than not know, there's something in my hands. So again, look, if I show you these and say, there's nothing here, but then hide them from you. Again, you don't feel as good about me as if you can see my hands. So it's that what we call a heuristic it's so it's a quick way that the brain makes a decision. And it's always saying if insufficient data default to a negative, it's just not an optimist around this.

James Taylor Now, the last time I spoken to you, I think I just come back from being an event that former President Barack Obama had been speaking out. And we were having a conversation about his body language on stage. And so and this is, I think it's interesting, when you're talking just now maybe if people can go back and watch some videos of him, you'll quickly see what you're talking about, as well. But someone like that there's a speaker that's known for being a great orator, a great communicator on stages, what are some of the things that you might notice about him that you might that might not necessarily be there in other speakers?

Mark Bowden Yeah, so let me give you actually just a couple of things that I think he does particularly well, and again, I'll stand up and go back a bit, so you can see more of me, there, let me just tell this camera up, so you get more of my face in as I move back, one of the things that you'll notice he does is open palm gestures at navel height that are symmetrical. So you won't very often see him start to gesture in asymmetry, as I'm doing for you now, because probably as you and the audience are watching me move in this asymmetry and move the horizontal height, you'll notice it's a little more confusing what I'm saying. I mean, my content for you is very simple at the moment, but my gestures have actually become way too complex for you to really judge my feeling and intention. And if I bring my hands back to open palm gestures at exactly navel height, this is the area that I've called the truth plane, because it's calm and assertive. And you're most likely to trust me when I speak here, and I keep them symmetrical, which means that if you know what one side is doing, you know what the other side is doing as well, it takes less brain capacity to be able to understand me, you get very assured about my content, essentially, you're more likely to feel confident about my content. Now, here's the other thing is that on many of his speeches, he'll speak at around about almost one word a second. And that's really slow. And I want you to notice how much attention you're now paying to every word. I say. Now, it's a little laborious. And you might not be able to cope with a full hour of this. But for moments when I'm speaking, you're probably getting a sense of there's real power, in my words. And my normal speech pattern would be about this kind of speed. And you'll notice the faster I go, sure, it's very energetic, but it doesn't have the power of just a few words a second, and at times, almost one word a second. So I think those are the two things that he's doing which are really important. Not that we have to emulate that completely. Yeah, but I think there's lessons to be had from it.

James Taylor And it was obviously in language as well. He's kind of doing he's imitating with his body things are happening his language, he'll often use very long pauses, almost. I mean, it's coming from a sales background, almost like salesman pauses where you'll purposely pause to make it feel almost a little bit uncomfortable if you want to know they're coming with it with a comment and sometimes that says he was doing those but they were doing him very skillfully, so it didn't feel like weird or anything. There's another thing I noticed that politicians do a lot and have obviously been some have been trained or some some haven't, is in the use of their hands. So you were using like different hand gestures and things they will when they're pressing Homecourt. I think this was the first person I possibly saw do with Tony Blair, where he used this gesture here so he was like pressing, you know, he's pressing on the point Other other things that I know you work with politicians as well as speakers are the things that you teach them in terms of what they do with, with the hands themselves.

Mark Bowden Yeah, in fact, that's one of the main things that I concentrate on is, is what they do with their hands. Now, this gesture here, which actually I would say, Bill Clinton was probably the best known for Yeah, and, and what this was about was his trainers, trying to stop him pointing, there's nothing wrong with pointing, it just might get you a result that you don't want, it can feel aggressive at times. So what they did was swap it for this. My problem with this is this isn't a gesture that anybody ever uses in real life. If you think about, you know, for those those out there watching and listening, think if you've got kids, When was the first time you saw your kid do this gesture? Well, they don't. Yeah, they might do this one for sure. A fist. Yeah, that's, that's an instinct or instinctual gesture, but this one isn't. So we always look at politicians doing this gesture and kind of go, what do they do? What are they What are they meaning by this, and actually, its meaning has become one of Oh, you're a politician. So I actually guide my clients away from these gestures, and more towards suddenly open hand gestures. You know, rather than point I'd rather they cut like this in, because again, this shows no tools, no weapons, nothing in my hands to harm you. So again, if I just kind of show you, those, those gestures from from back here, you'll be able to see these open palm gestures here probably feel more inclusive, inclusive of you, calmer, more assertive, the moment I change to these fist like gestures, with that pointy thumb, I become a lot more aggressive, naturally. And I don't know whether this is really helping me make contact with you, the audience? So let me just swap back to these gestures here. And my guess is you probably feel me calming down a little bit becoming calmer and assertive, my voice patterns slowing down slightly. So you know, again, I would I would bring my clients back to that idea of the the open palm gestures and, and generally open body language. And what about the use of anchoring when it comes to body language, so

James Taylor you'll hear a lot of speakers, they will use phrases, there is a way of anchoring an audience. And I've seen like people that maybe like Tony Robbins would be the first one that comes to mind off the top my head, he has a, he has a certain couple of little gestures, like one was he does this thing here. And there's a couple of gestures. So what any suggestions for maybe the speakers that are watching this just now who they kind of see these things? And they're unsure, you know, should I be using these maybe the the high point of my speech? Should I be adding an anchor? Or is it just not going to work? Is it going to backfire on me,

Mark Bowden I would use bigger anchors To be honest, I would anchor yourself to parts of the stage, rather than specific gestures. So let's just do a simple idea here, let's have a good part of the stage and a bad part of the stage make it really binary. Yeah. And the bad part of the stage is all our old behaviors that we used to do. And the good part of the stage is the behaviors that we're going to move towards just and I'm just having the context here, if you're trying to do some kind of behavioral change with the audience, maybe you're trying to get them to change some patterns in their life or sell better or lead better. And we could talk about, so again, we could talk about the old way that we were leading over here somewhere. And then I could maybe anchor these these behaviors, even to some body language, which is a little more in what I call the grotesque plane. So hands down by your side. And look, there was nothing wrong with these behaviors that you were doing in the past, it was maybe just not getting you the results that you wanted, and these old patterns, but are now starting to think about some of the new behaviors we can start to do. And I started thinking about how exciting those could be, you know how they could really move your life forward. So I'd like you to choose these behaviors. Now. Look, there was nothing wrong with these ones over here. But were they really getting you the great results that you needed. Let's think about changing over to these new behaviors more exciting for sure. And certainly, they'll get you the results that you want. So in that I'm just anchoring to to really specific points. And when it comes to question time, for example, and the audience want to ask me questions about this, I might anchor back To those, again, to create the states that I've set up the state of excitement over here, maybe, and the state of, you know, not bad behavior, but just not getting you the results that you want. I think those kind of big stage movements are a lot clearer than going for sometimes quite delicate and specific gestures, which might be harder for some of the audience to see.

James Taylor Yeah, I mean, that reminds me that those kind of smaller ones, I saw someone do it recently. And and I think there's actually, I think cults used to do this, which he said something along that I came up with the present said, but he said something along the lines of, so you can do it my way, or you could do it the other way. But whichever way you're going to choose, I know you could do the right direction and vary. And it was like, Oh, it was like really horrible. And I don't know if we were just me noticing it, but it just felt like not right. But I'm wondering as well, when I when I speak on stage, there's one keynote I gave what I actually want, for the first 10 minutes, I actually want it to be a bit confused on purpose, because I'm burning tension in my talk. So how can we use body language to create a little bit of like, we talked about cognitive dissonance, you know, so we can use our body, in addition to what we're saying and creating that confusion. Where's he going with? What's happening with this? Well, you can actually do that with your body as well.

Mark Bowden Yeah, for sure. So all you need to do is asymmetrical gestures, especially one that will be around the head. Yeah. And you can circle your hands as well during this in different ways. And the more you start to take the hands away from the head as you're doing that, the more confused people will get. Because they can't quite tell which side you're on. Yeah, so asymmetrical gestures For a start, move the hands around. Yeah, and move them away from the head. And then what you'd want to do is bring the hands symmetrical, as to when you want to make your clear point. Now actually, Donald Trump does this brilliantly. Yeah, he's a real genius, at being able to confuse people. And he'll go, you know what, and they've got this idea. And this idea, it's just not gonna work, it's just not gonna work, because they just don't know what they're doing what they're doing at all. But here's what we're going to do. And then he'll come symmetrical. Yeah. So watch out for for Trump during that you may not agree with his politics. But it's great watching his body language, because there's a great deal that he does absolutely on purpose, in order to get you to feel like what he's saying is delicate and intelligent. And then to be able to confuse you, as well, and then be able to bring you to a point that maybe actually isn't very logical, but you're by it, because the body language is now clear behind it. So I think that's one way of confusing people. And the other the other way is to, is to not, not finish patterns of behavior. So to so to do stuff that that confuses people, because you're, you're alarming them as to something's going on, but you don't quite know what it is. Now, this might disturb them too much, by the way.

James Taylor And I think you see actors use that when they're in character for certain things, if they want to get across that sense of being a little bit manic. And they'll do those movements and not complete things. And it's, and it's very jarring,

Mark Bowden right? Right, I'll often use it as well, if I want to alert the audience that something is about to happen, I'll often think, Oh, I want to I want to write this down. And I'll look for look for where I've put my pen or something. And then I'll make the statement. And suddenly they get they've locked onto me, because all of these movements triggered them that there might be a predator around. And so their instinctual mind goes, Oh, we better watch what's happening, what's happening, what's happening, what's happening, or something definite is happening now. So incomplete gestures, then going to complete gestures will fulfill an audience, even if your content doesn't fulfill them completely.

James Taylor So these these techniques, your your, you teach, and you talk about and you write about, you know, they're very powerful. And I'm guessing they can be used for harm, as well. So, you know, as speakers where we're having to be quite alert to what other speakers are doing, and there's maybe some people, some speakers will go Actually, I'm not going to use that because that doesn't really fit with my, my codes, my way of doing things. I don't want people to feel those sensations or going to those places. So when people make that claim, he says, Listen, I don't think you should be teaching stuff because it feels manipulative in some way. What is your response to that?

Mark Bowden Fine, don't use them. It's just nobody will listen to you and you won't get your point across. That's okay. I guess it wasn't important to you. I guess I guess, I guess you didn't actually. Because here's the problem is that other people will accidentally use these techniques and accidentally get their message across better than you. And that's unfortunate, because maybe you have an incredibly positive message. But you're not prepared to put on the behaviors that will get your message across, right, this whole idea of build it and they will come, No, they won't, they'll stay at home, that watch the TV TVs great

James Taylor is the default position. Really, as you mentioned, at the start, not to do

Mark Bowden right, the default position is I'll just be myself and people will, you know, gravitate towards me? No, they won't. I guarantee it, they won't, you have to have something of an element of charisma, which is focused behavior on purpose. And you can do that nobody's born with charisma, they learn it, they learn it, because they know it has the effect that they want. So I would say you need to use behaviors on purpose in order to influence and persuade people, because as a speaker, it is your job to persuade them, that is your function to influence and persuade other people. Otherwise, they will spend their life how they've always been spending it, which is not with you, not with your content. Now you need to gather more audience around you. And therefore, you must influence and persuade and manipulation is, is part of that MIT manipulation comes from Latin Manny, which just means hands, just means it just means you're molding the world. And we do it unconsciously, all the time. We mold the world with our language. Just listen what I did that. I said, we do that all the time. And my guess is, is everybody's head nodding, going. Yeah, we do that all the time. I don't know, do we I've not tested it. Maybe we don't. But look how I manipulated the world unconsciously there by using the the idea of all the time.

James Taylor And I think some of those some of those great speakers will talk about some, like, you know, inspiring people that you find very inspiring speakers and what they're what they're doing. I think many of them maybe they haven't, they haven't learned it in a in a set way in terms of these skills and these techniques, but they've maybe studied under someone, or they've trained or they become, I mean, I think about friends of mine that are great speakers. And they've studied it will be like Martin Luther King. So you'll notice things going on there. Or they'll like a zig ziglar and and maybe in the motivation award and you'll you pick up lots of little things there. Their phrasing is going to be different. But there's things that are going on the body language, because they've obviously been in the room, they've watched that person work the room and subconsciously, something's happened there.

Mark Bowden Sure. So it's it's always learned behavior, we just often don't know how they learnt it. And sometimes they don't know how they learnt it. But we can learn it. I mean, I teach it. Yeah, I teach it because it must be liked by anybody wanting to lead, it must be learned. And it must be conscious. Because if it's not conscious, how do you know you can do it tomorrow? How do you a great today? What are you just going to leave it up to luck, that you're good tomorrow, that you're great tomorrow, I don't think it's fair on an audience to leave your level of performance to luck. I think you have to study and train as much as you can, in order to make as much of it as possible. Under your conscious control.

James Taylor I think you know, we're talking here about a lot about the audience how the audience perceives you as a speaker. But in terms of those done those body movements and things that you do with your body, is also I think a lot about anchoring you into those positive states that you want to in order to give your best when you go go up there on stage. And obviously sports people they use this all the time, they're very, very good at knowing there's any, they they work through these loops, and they they do certain things before they they go out to the track and see speakers do that. Sometimes it's a little strange quirks and things that they have, they feel that they have to otherwise it's just, it's just a way of being before they go on stage.

Mark Bowden So sometimes I don't get why why people are so you know, anti putting on behaviors. Because they don't mind when 100 meter runner does their warm up routine, which is not their innate behavior. They've decided those behaviors in order to get the best performance. And and nobody goes without really inauthentic what they're doing right now why don't they just run, you know, just if they just ran? No, they know you can't just run and win. You have to choose really specific behaviors within the running and really train in those specific areas. In order that when you get to the point of performance when you're up against others, that you stand the best chance of being the best performer, they're nobody on the 100 meter track is doing innate running. They're trained runners,

James Taylor and I think they want to win is that that, you know, that word elite gets used, and people are very comfortable about using elite for athletes, maybe elite in music and classical music, for example. But when you talk about elite speakers, or that feels, you know, people kind of get a little bit strange about about that word.

Mark Bowden Yeah, I'm with you on that. Because I get a little I get a little bit a little bit worried by people going, Well, I want to be an elite speaker, but I just want to be me. Well, if it was about being you, you'd already be it. You just show up and like a crowd would just form around you, you would have this natural magnetism where you just show up. And so it's not about that, you have to create a set of behaviors, which I believe is about you being way more than you. So not about you being authentic. It's about you choosing your greatest behaviors and amping those up to a level whereby you're irresistible. Yeah, where it costs you, because it's you. But it's the most extra ordinary you. And I think people often go well, to be authentic, I just got to be the ordinary may, I guarantee nobody will show up for the ordinary. Yeah.

James Taylor And I think you know, friends of mine, that actually a friend of mine, who was the manager for Taylor Swift, the music artist, and she would have a coach, you'd have multiple should have vocal coach, you'd have a dance, you know, choreography coach, but she also had a performance coach, who would would know in terms of our set, and I think, you know, when I speak with people to hear the speakers as well, or watching or listening to this, your, your, your keynote, your hour long keynote, a 90 minute keynote is a set in that way. And so Taylor's coach there, they would work out the story of this the arc of the of the performance, and he would say, this point here, when you do this, you need to be in this point in the stage, you need to be doing this this movement, you need to be you know, and it was very well, and obviously, for an audience's standpoint, it just feels, you know, it's all about that word authentic. I'll be Will you maybe use that word about something he or she just heard you just heard, right, but huge amount of craft, there's a huge amount of going on backstage and also with our coaches. So when you work with speakers, unported, how do they How do they you end up kind of working with them? What's the usual way that you can operate together? Is it like a Skype coaching sessions? Or do you come together and huddle for a couple of days? Do they send in videos? How does it work?

Mark Bowden Yeah, so if it's if it's politicians, for example, I will be part of their team. And I'll be working with strategists, you know, people, pollsters, and strategists. So here's what we're trying to work out. What do we need people to feel in order for them to vote and for that politician to win. And, and, and it's not about what everybody needs to feel, there's only a few people that matter. There's only within the systems, the democratic systems, actually not everybody is equal, some people matter more than others, simply because of the system that's been set up. So you're really interested in who matters most, what do they need from a leader? And therefore, what would your leader have to do in order for them to feel innately that that is the leader for them? Now, here's the thing with politics is, the point is to win. There's no second place. You don't nobody cheers you when you come in second, actually, what happens is, is history forgets you, you won't even remember the name of the person that came in second. So you have to win. And so you will perform whatever you need to perform in order to win. So I'm pretty much there choreographing helping them understand, here's the behavior that will provoke those people to feel like you are the right person for them. Now, let's talk about that in terms of manipulation. Unless you actually turn out to be the right person, they will have what's called buyer's remorse, and they will dislike you intently. So, so you can lie. That's okay. You can put on the behaviors that lie, just lying is for the lazy because you will get found out in the end, maybe not this year, maybe not next year, maybe five years down the line, you'll get found out for lying, and they'll say we're disappointed in you to the extent that will make your life a misery right now, and then they will for sure. So So really, that's the work that I do is is where, you know, just as you were saying with that Taylor Swift idea. We're looking at what do we want the audience to feel? And what what do we have to do in order to For them to feel like that. And then we do that. And we don't just do it once we do it again and again and again and again. And again, it's about the repetition. And we don't try anything else. We don't go, Well, why don't we add a little, you know, nuance of this and a little bit of that we just go, No, we've got one thing that we're doing, and we're just gonna do it repetitively. So that that audience's mind really knows what they're buying into. Does that, does that make some sense to you jokes?

James Taylor Yeah, I mean, that. So you have, what's going on there is is that the body version of what cam strategist will do where they'll have a set number of phrases. And they know that it's the only know that is really working as being repeated time and time again, when not only is a strategist and everyone, their team completely fed up with the phrase, the media is completely fed up with a phrase, but only when you start hearing people repeat in the general public repeat that phrase. And so you're doing a similar thing with it with the body language. And I guess we're this relates to speakers is often speakers will have their, their, their story that shortly, depending on the size of your keynote, it could be a short version, it could be elongated version. And I've seen a lot of very good speakers do they will have that story. And it's the same story, which they've been saying for 15 years. Yep. And they will tweak things here and there, but the same one, and, and there's one person I know, in particular, very successful speaker and I said, can't get fed up telling a story. And he said, Well, it's a bit like having your hit as an art, you know, you know, if you go there, and you have to give that you get that hit. Because in that room, there will be people that have never heard that before. And also, some of these people might only get to hear you maybe two or three times. So you want to make sure that wherever they're leaving with it that's like ringing in their ear, they absolutely can say one thing is that that story is that if that's life story, or whatever the pieces that you want, there's a lot of a lot of similarities there with politicians.

Mark Bowden I think that's absolutely true. And just just to talk a little bit on that speaker point of, of the speaker coming up with new material, I hear this from many, many speakers that I that I work with, or who are colleagues of mine, and clients will come to you. And they'll say, Oh, you know, can you do a little bit different? We got some ideas for some different content for you. And and what you do is to go Oh, yeah, that's really Oh, yeah, I could do some of that. That's great. Yeah, I'll fit some of that in. And then you go on, and you do the same as you've always done, because they didn't want anything different. They just want it to be heard. But they want like you say they want the hits. The reason they want you back is because they've seen the hit that you've done, and they want that for their audience. I've played the same audiences time and time again. And I do the same stuff. And they come and they go, God was so different this time. And I know it wasn't, I know it was the same. It's just now they've got even more relaxed with me even more used to me, they're seeing the different levels in the speech, they're actually able to pick out more nuance, but I haven't changed anything about it. So I think, you know, when you have got a really great narrative, and you've got a really great performance, and you've got great content, one of the keys then it's just a stick with it. And just to you know, if you ever been to a to a music concert, where, you know, somebody's playing one of their hits, but because they've got bored with it, they've decided to change it in some way. They've changed the tempo. They've got a different you know, they've decided they'll, it's like going to see the police and sting gets like, bored with this stuff. And he decides to do some of his songs, you know, not with a reggae beat and on a lute. It's like, Oh, really?

James Taylor Yeah, I

Mark Bowden really wanted to the police. I didn't want sting. Singing, you know, so only as a ballad

James Taylor on a lute. You feel a bit disappointed by that

Mark Bowden disappointed

James Taylor so the end of this everyone's gonna get that loot album by sting. album. Like Dominic Miller apology, he's the guitar player of his thing. So hopefully, more people want to reach out to you many of our speakers here because they want to work with someone like you on on the coaching side and just improve what they're doing with their their body language. What's the best way for them to connect with you?

Mark Bowden Sure, just go to the truth plain sight. So that's ww truth plain comm tr u th, p L, a n a truth claim calm. You'll see a contact form on one of the pages. Just drop me a line on that. And I'll get back to you really quickly or find me on Facebook or find me on Twitter. Just put in the word truth plain, and you'll get me some way

James Taylor somehow. Mark, thank you so much as always, it was a fascinating experience. talking with you. I always learn so much. Thank you so much for coming on the summit. I wish You all the best with your own speaking because you're very busy speaker yourself and I know you're working on your next book at the moment so all the best of that I look forward to seeing you on a stage really soon.

Mark Bowden Yeah I hope to be with you on a stage sometime that'll be that'll be great and thanks for thanks for speaking with me and thanks audience for joining in really appreciate it.

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